The US Healthcare Mass Debate

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pErvinalia
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:08 am

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:Simple.

You need a system of universal health care, as practiced (in a variety of forms) by the civilised world.
Perhaps, but there are downsides, as the comparison of the medical-related innovation and research done in the United States, as compared to the "civilized nations" is rather an interesting one, with the United States far and away presenting about 40% of the worlds research and innovation in this area.
Rapidly reducing if your mate gets his way:
Donald Trump has proposed cuts to medical research funding, infrastructure programs and community grants to pay for his US-Mexico border wall.
.....
The latest Trump proposal would eliminate $US1.2 billion ($A1.6 billion) in National Institutes of Health research grants, a favourite of both parties.
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017 ... order-wall
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Tero » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:32 pm

My response elsewhere to the claim that the ACA was a gift to big phrma:

While the ACA does fill more prescriptuons than before, the pricing of drugs is a bit complicated. But you charge as much as you think patients will pay. A cure for hepatitis C did not exist before the patent of the current drug was filed. Until the patent expires, you pay. Same with biologicals like Humira, which are expensive to make and hard to replicate. Antibodies.

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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:37 pm

pErvin wrote:and a TV. When I was in hospital last year for kidney stones I had to ring someone and pay money to get my tv turned on :lay:
...so uncivilized.

You had to PAY for something? Amazing. But, I'm sure they did it progressively, by making the cost of the TV relative to financial means. I mean, charging people the same is very regressive.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:45 pm

JimC wrote:Universal health care for all, with private health insurance available for people who want a private hospital room with sexy nurses and champagne...
That's not fair. You mean, people with more money should get better care than those without as much money? So uncivilized....

And we should have Universal Food Care, which is a single payer program where each person is allocated sufficient food resources and they got to the supermarket and the bill is paid for by the National Food Service (NFS). That way, we can end the systemic discrimination that exists when food is sold for profit, and poor people are disproportionately burdened by food costs. I poor person goes to the supermarket and he or she is wandering the pasta and rice aisles, stretching a dollar. Meanwhile the Fat Cat One-Percenters are picking up sushi, organic vegetables, caviar and fancy cheeses at $20 per pound. Why should poor people have to eat ground chuck, while the rich kids get to eat ground sirloin 90% lean? Food is a basic human right.

I'm for Universal Vacation Benefits, which would allow all persons access to reasonable vacations. A person's mental well-being and morale should not be dependent on financial means. A person slogging it out on an hourly job, making $15 bucks an hour is as entitled to a wellness and mental health trip to Hawaii as a well-to-do doctor. And, why should the well-to-do have better hotel accommodations than the poor? The poor have to stay at the Clamdigger Motel, three blocks from the beach, with a musty smell and sink that drips, while the High Hats get to stay at the Westin on the beach? That isn't fair.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trumpcare

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:24 pm

Hyperbole apart, I would suggest that health care is in a special category, one that civilised societies should prioritise...
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:19 pm

If the first duty of the government is to protect its citizens from harm then a comprehensive healthcare system accessible to all is a moral necessity.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:32 pm

JimC wrote:Hyperbole apart, I would suggest that health care is in a special category, one that civilised societies should prioritise...
Special-er than food? Really? Food and water is prior to healthcare on the hierarchy of needs, isn't it?

How would you structure an argument in favor of the motion: Healthcare is a special category which must be collectivized, whereas food need not be?

I would point out that there are plenty of people making plenty of arguments that poor people do not have access to the same quality (nutrition-wise) food as rich people. And, certainly, a poor person's overall budget consists of a much higher percentage of necessary food - that is, as a percentage of total household expenses, food represents a greater proportion of the poor person's budget than the rich person's budget. As the rich person increases their budget, it's often with an unnecessary luxury increase in food expenditures with more expensive foods that may be more fun and tasty to eat, but otherwise unnecessary.

So, equal prices for food to everyone is clearly a bigger burden on the poorer folks than the rich. Also, the same is true of fuel. Home heating, and auto fuel costs the same for the poorer among us as it does for the rich. These are absolute necessities, aren't they? Or, do people have a "right" to health care, but not a right food and fuel?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trumpcare

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:17 pm

If you can't see that universal healthcare is a must for civilised people, then so be it. Don't muddy the waters with specious arguments about other social issues.

This libertarian fear of the loathsome "collective" is the reason why the US is sinking back into being a third world country in terms of the welfare of the poor.
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:07 am

Social goods are 'collective' by definition - they're supposed to be goods for the whole of society, not just the lucky few.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Tero » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:52 am

With no Trumpcare, Price keeps saying this and that will be taken out. Forcing insurance companies to pull out of ACA due to uncertainty.
https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl= ... pt0-646307

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Re: Trumpcare

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:01 am

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:Hyperbole apart, I would suggest that health care is in a special category, one that civilised societies should prioritise...
Special-er than food? Really? Food and water is prior to healthcare on the hierarchy of needs, isn't it?

How would you structure an argument in favor of the motion: Healthcare is a special category which must be collectivized, whereas food need not be?

I would point out that there are plenty of people making plenty of arguments that poor people do not have access to the same quality (nutrition-wise) food as rich people. And, certainly, a poor person's overall budget consists of a much higher percentage of necessary food - that is, as a percentage of total household expenses, food represents a greater proportion of the poor person's budget than the rich person's budget. As the rich person increases their budget, it's often with an unnecessary luxury increase in food expenditures with more expensive foods that may be more fun and tasty to eat, but otherwise unnecessary.

So, equal prices for food to everyone is clearly a bigger burden on the poorer folks than the rich. Also, the same is true of fuel. Home heating, and auto fuel costs the same for the poorer among us as it does for the rich. These are absolute necessities, aren't they? Or, do people have a "right" to health care, but not a right food and fuel?
This is a reasonable point, and I'm not sure what the logistics would be of providing food services to everyone. The way it is addressed now is through the welfare system. People in need are given welfare (in the form of cash) and that obviously goes first and foremost to shelter and food. The problem with the current system is that the welfare payments aren't enough to survive in any meaningful capacity.
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:26 am

One step at a time. Health care is something that has been proved to work as a reasonably universal system in many countries, so that's something for the US to aspire to. Access to sanitation and clean water should be a universal right as well. Beyond that, at least you could require a welfare system to make sure that people can feed themselves adequately, but sure, the devil is in the details...
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:30 am

This is why I support a universal basic income. Make it at a level that people can survive at a basic minimum (i.e. be able to pay rent in the outer suburbs of the capital cities, and afford food, insurance, public transport if it exists, and a bit extra for whatever emergencies might occur or for saving up for something). Then with public housing and universal healthcare and free education, basically everyone in society has the opportunity to live at least a minimally dignified life and has the opportunities to progress further if they want.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:16 pm

There will have to be a radical change. Automation and robotics is going to do away with most jobs. The future will be very different...

“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trumpcare

Post by Tero » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:04 pm


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