The US Healthcare Mass Debate

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Tero
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:37 am

The thing is, any change in insurance rules, whomever it favors, leads to raised premiums.
Insurance CEO: something happened?
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CEO: raise the premiums!
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Joe » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:24 am

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:35 am
Joe wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:03 am
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:55 pm
JimC wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:36 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:03 pm


Australia does it pretty well.
At least in comparison to the US. Healthcare is free to those on low incomes or pensions (via bulk billing or a healthcare card), and for most others is subsidised. Public hospital treatment is free. You can also take out health insurance and go private if you wish, so we haven't gone all Marxist on freedom of choice, either... :tea:
Doesn't sound like free universal healthcare for all, though. I thought that's what Joe said was needed.
Where did I say that? :think:
"The civilised answer, of course, is free, universal health care for all. Taking care of other human beings should be a no-brainer..." I guess I misinterpreted your statement that the civilized answer is "free, universal healthcare for all" to mean that you thought "free, universal healthcare for all" was needed. And, not just some healthcare at a cost.
No, that was JimC. I can understand your mistake, as we are both intelligent, articulate, and handsome gents, who set the ladies a swoon, but he's the Strayan gin connoisseur, and I'm the whisky drinking southerner in Cowboyland, USA, and all that complimentary stuff really only applies to him. :martini:
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:35 am
There's no such thing as free healthcare, though some funding schemes are better than others. :smoke:
This I know. Hospitals cost money. Doctors need to be paid. You have multi-million dollar buildings, with pieces of equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, with doctors whose training cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and nurses and other specialists and assistants... It's going to cost money. That's why I have to kind of look on in amazement when someone says "oh, your system sucks! People have to pay money for it!" And, then they explain their glorious system as involving hundreds of dollars a month in premiums, with subsidies for the poor and loans for those who don't qualify for subsidies, and then they say that's what we should do, when our system was lambasted when we had (a) free healthcare for low income, elderly, disabled and children, and (b) available health insurance premiums that were less expensive than what, say, Dutchy, says he has to pay in the Netherlands now.

A few years ago, when I could go online and get a decent health insurance plan for $150 per month for a single person, that was not acceptable to the pro Obamacare folks and the Europeans were saying "that's ridiculous, you need universal healthcare." Now a single person needs to pay more like $450 a months, and everyone is like "whew! Good thing we have Obamacare guaranteeing health insurance for all!"
Well, Forty Two, I've been screwed by Obamacare and saved by it, so I'm far less willing to take my experience, which is unusual, as indicative of anything. You should probably do likewise and accept that policy changes as sweeping as the ACA will have winners and losers. Given that we are in a situation where half of our politicians are trying to kill the damn thing and the other half preserve it, reaching any conclusion is probably premature.
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Joe » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:53 am

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 am
Seabass wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:07 am
Of course Obamacare sucks. It's a Republican health care system. It's a Republican health care system bolted onto the HMO Act, which is another Republican health care system. And of course to make matters worse, the fucking Republicans went and strangled Obamacare in the crib because it was passed by Democrats. The Dems have wanted UHC since FDR, but that's not possible because Republicans ruin everything.
I don't care whose it is, it does suck, but this post of yours is a pathetic load of bullshit. If that's what you thought it was, why the fuck would you have supported it ever?

UHC is a pipe dream, and another load of horse shit.

What works is a voluntary, market driven health care system, with a solid social safety net for those who cannot afford insurance.

Once again, one of the lies of Obamacare was that it was meant to cover the poor. It wasn't. The poor were already covered, and if what was needed was to raise the income level eligible for assistance, then that could have been done -- raise that level 10%? 20%? But, no - that wasn't the purpose. The reason Obamacare had to be structured the way it was, was quite simply - and indisputably - it's in reasonable dispute - it's a "consensus" if you will - quite simply most of the "uninsured" could afford it, but chose not to buy it. I've posted endless sources for that. The Obama administrations own numbers bore that out.
I remember coaxing you into posting some of the sources for your claims, and the numbers in them didn't add up to what you claimed. I recall asking you to share where you got your numbers and never getting a response. This was maybe 5 months ago.

Perhaps it's a good time to revisit the basis for your assertions about the uninsured again. Then we can judge the reasonableness of your conclusion.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
"as far as strong, i am hard as a rock and tough as a nail. no one will bring me down. no one. i am the debonator. the tnt. and jesus has my back door pal!" - D. C. Bockemehl
"If you vote for idiots, idiots will run the country." - Dr. Kori Schake

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by laklak » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:59 am

Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:00 am

Isn't that about the same amount as was uninsured before OC? And isn't it illegal to be uninsured now?
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by laklak » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:08 am

It's complicated.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottgottl ... 515792788a

They got rid of the penalties for not being insured, so while it might be technically illegal there's no way to enforce it.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Joe » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:00 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:00 am
Isn't that about the same amount as was uninsured before OC? And isn't it illegal to be uninsured now?
It went down after the ACA kicked in. According to the census report, Health Insurance in the United States: 2013, 41.9 million were uninsured in 2013. The 2017 report has a graph showing the trend.

Image

But like the Forbes article Lak linked to points out, they changed their methodology in 2013, so it's not certain how much of the drop is a result of that.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
"as far as strong, i am hard as a rock and tough as a nail. no one will bring me down. no one. i am the debonator. the tnt. and jesus has my back door pal!" - D. C. Bockemehl
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Hermit » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:17 am

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:42 pm
Hermit wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:36 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:51 pm
Hermit wrote:Now hear this: Don't bother typing up your usual wall of words in reply. I will stop reading at the first sign of bullshit or Gish gallop.
Just put him on ignore.
No. As I mentioned numerous times already, I disagree with almost every assertion Coito Two makes, and his arguments are in my opinion more often than not based on untenable assumptions, but they are way more intelligently and coherently argued than yours, let alone than those of our participant posting from the vicinity of Yellowknife.

In short, if I started populating my ignore list, Coito Two would not be the first cab off the rank.
Untenable assumptions, like that the US is a Milton Friedman-esque libertarian wonderland?
It's all relative, so compared to civilised nations the US is definitely Milton Friedmanesque libertarian. I can guarantee that were he alive today and compared the US health care system, be it pre or post Affordable Care Act, with that of Australia, to pick just one example, he would agree. Though some Australians choose to take out private health insurance policies, most don't. Most of the expense is covered by a 2% Medicare levy that is added to whatever your marginal tax rate happens to be. High income earners ($90k+ p.a. for single taxpayers, $180k+ p.a. for couples) get whacked with an additional 1.5% surcharge. Low income earners get a rebate or pay no levy at all, depending on just how little they earn. Every time we foolishly vote the conservatives into office, they whiteant the health system by introducing co-payments, deleting some prescription drugs from the list of covered pharmaceuticals and so on, but on the whole nobody in Australia is in danger of being bankrupted by medical bills - not even the unfortunates that suffer notoriously expensive chronic illnesses like diabetes or operations that simply are expensive like quadruple heart bypass surgery.

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:10 pm

We'll need one of them 1.5% surcharges for just saving soc sec.
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:19 pm

You have to work 80 hours a month
16,932 people have lost Medicaid coverage under Arkansas’s work requirements
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... enrollment
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:13 pm

More on Arkansas

The state has removed more than 16,000 low-income adults for failing to log at least 80 hours of work, job training, volunteering or similar activity — including 4,655 in November.

Some of the people thrown off the program describe a nightmarish, confusing experience with clunky technology and no one to help them. Individuals who don't adhere to the new rules for three months get removed from Medicaid for the rest of the year.

“I have pre-existing conditions. But all they could tell me was, 'sorry, you didn’t comply,'” said Jamie Deyo, who lost coverage and suffers from rheumatoid arthritis and back problems stemming from a 2013 car accident. “It just was a slap in the face.”
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/ ... ge-1076876
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:16 pm

Fuck the poor
The Trump administration is quietly devising a plan bypassing Congress to give block grants to states for Medicaid, achieving a longstanding conservative dream of reining in spending on the health care safety net for the poor.

Three administration sources say the Trump administration is drawing up guidelines on what could be a major overhaul of Medicaid in some states. Instead of the traditional open-ended entitlement, states would get spending limits, along with more flexibility to run the low-income health program that serves nearly 75 million Americans, from poor children, to disabled people, to impoverished seniors in nursing homes.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/ ... an-1078885

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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:50 pm

Drug store rebate kickback system
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... ns-rebates
If you do not have insurance you don’t get the rebate
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Seabass » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:37 am

Republican lunacy knows no bounds...
‘Duck Dynasty’ Star Phil Robertson: I Don’t Need Health Care Because I Have ‘Immortality Given to Me by God’
Robertson told Fox Business Network that publicly funded health care is useless because he will live forever in God's embrace.

I already have health care. It’s given to me by God. Eternal health care. I’m guaranteed to be raised from the dead. I have life and immortality given to me by God through Jesus Christ... The temporary reprieve is not worth it. I'm telling [Kamala Harris], I have eternal health care, and it's free! Doctors can give you a little temporary reprieve, but they cannot save you from physical death. The doctors who treat you, they die, too.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/duck-dyna ... -me-by-god
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Re: The US Healthcare Mass Debate

Post by Tero » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:56 pm

Medicare for all not till past 2020
https://theintercept.com/2019/02/05/nan ... e-for-all/

Medicare for Tero coming in May.
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