Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

[Seth]

You can't defeat fascism by building a wall around your farmstead and shooting at anyone who gets too close for comfort. What stands between the citizen and fascism is community, not individualism.

No, what stands between the individual and fascism is rational self-interest. When expressed by a community that respects individualism combined with rational self-interest you get freedom, liberty, peace and voluntary cooperative effort to achieve a functioning community.

But that is not socialism in any respect because socialism is collectivism that disrespects both the individual and rational self-interest in favor of collective interest and forcible compliance with that collective interest to obtain what cannot be obtained voluntarily.

So, you agree that you cant defeat fascism individually. No need for the "No" there then.

That depends on the nature of the fascist involved. Sometimes a single bullet fired by a single person can dispose of fascism quite effectively.

But, that defeating fascism might require voluntary cooperative action based in rational self-interest doesn't mean that collectivism or socialism is required.

I think only you were suggestion otherwise.

It always needs to be said that socialism is never a solution for anything at all, ever, lest some Marxist useful idiot think it might be.

[pErvinalia]

Politics can be neatly divided into two, and only two classes:

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

[Seth]

Politics can be neatly divided into two, and only two classes:

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you. I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

[rainbow]

Politics can be neatly divided into two, and only two classes:

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you.

Property is theft, and you stole your's from the injuns.

I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

...so when your forefathers stole the land, did they abide by this principle?

[pErvinalia]

Stop ur Marksist taktiks!

[Seth]

Politics can be neatly divided into two, and only two classes:

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you.

Property is theft, and you stole your's from the injuns.

I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

...so when your forefathers stole the land, did they abide by this principle?

Take it up with Andrew Jackson and the British Empire. I didn't steal anything from anyone.

[JimC]

pErvin, this is a reminder that the following posts contain personal attacks on various members. Please refrain in future.

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 9#p1700289

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 7#p1700387

[Forty Two]

Politics can be neatly divided into two, and only two classes:

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you.

Property is theft, and you stole your's from the injuns.

Property is theft? From whom?

I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

...so when your forefathers stole the land, did they abide by this principle?

Everyone's forefathers stole land. The Romans stole from the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons from the Romans, the Normans from the Anglo-Saxons, etc. Are you giving England back to the genetically Celt, or is that too far back in the past?

What about Canada? Should all the descendants of Brits pack up and leave?

And, does this idea that white people "stole" land they migrated to apply to migrants today? Are, say, illegal aliens who enter France or the UK and settle there "stealing" the land?

[pErvinalia]

Politics can be neatly divided into two, and only two classes:

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you.

Property is theft, and you stole your's from the injuns.

Property is theft? From whom?

From those who never had a chance to own it. Most notably future generations.

I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

...so when your forefathers stole the land, did they abide by this principle?

Everyone's forefathers stole land. The Romans stole from the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons from the Romans, the Normans from the Anglo-Saxons, etc. Are you giving England back to the genetically Celt, or is that too far back in the past?

What about Canada? Should all the descendants of Brits pack up and leave?

tu quoque. Seth said "or you believe that that someone else's stuff belongs to you". Clearly Seth believes that someone else's stuff belongs to him, when it was his forefathers that were involved.

[DaveDodo007]

Politics can be neatly divided into two, and only two classes:

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you.

Property is theft, and you stole your's from the injuns.

I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

...so when your forefathers stole the land, did they abide by this principle?

Take it up with Andrew Jackson and the British Empire. I didn't steal anything from anyone.

Leave the Glorious British Empire out of this, the planet has gone down hill since its demise.

[DaveDodo007]

Politics can be neatly divided into two, and only two classes:

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you.

Property is theft, and you stole your's from the injuns.

Property is theft? From whom?

I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

...so when your forefathers stole the land, did they abide by this principle?

Everyone's forefathers stole land. The Romans stole from the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons from the Romans, the Normans from the Anglo-Saxons, etc. Are you giving England back to the genetically Celt, or is that too far back in the past?

What about Canada? Should all the descendants of Brits pack up and leave?

And, does this idea that white people "stole" land they migrated to apply to migrants today? Are, say, illegal aliens who enter France or the UK and settle there "stealing" the land?

The whole world is British clay, it is only a matter of time before our prodigal son returns to the fold. Then we rule the planet with an iron but fair fist. We will then colonize the galaxy together.

[pErvinalia]

..it is only a matter of time before our prodigal son returns to the fold.

Jesus?

[Forty Two]

That might be the case, for the simple-minded.

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you.

Property is theft, and you stole your's from the injuns.

Property is theft? From whom?

From those who never had a chance to own it. Most notably future generations.

Well, that appears to be a revised definition of the word "theft" which involves taking property from another person who owns that property. It's not generally theft to buy a car before someone else has a chance to buy it.

I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

...so when your forefathers stole the land, did they abide by this principle?

Everyone's forefathers stole land. The Romans stole from the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons from the Romans, the Normans from the Anglo-Saxons, etc. Are you giving England back to the genetically Celt, or is that too far back in the past?

What about Canada? Should all the descendants of Brits pack up and leave?

tu quoque. Seth said "or you believe that that someone else's stuff belongs to you". Clearly Seth believes that someone else's stuff belongs to him, when it was his forefathers that were involved.

Well, no, because you're talking past each other there. Seth does not argue from the perspective of identity politics. I.e., he does not think a group of people owns property in Canada or the United States because people of the same race or color effectively took over the property in generations past. My understanding is that he argues from the perspective that individuals own land and other property, not races. It's more of a Progressive identity politics thing to say that "white people stole the land" from the indians. It's interesting, though, that the Progressives don't say that Mexicans who illegally enter the US "steal the land" from native Americans when they buy property here. They don't even make the same kinds of arguments that, like, Mexicans need to give their land back to the native Mexicans. Instead, the Progressive thinks Mexico is justified in its claims to the United States southwest, including California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, etc. It's the "whites" who stole the land.

This is not tu quoque, it's analyzing the issue. There should be some argument that makes sense behind various assertions, and if the suggestion is that that the European settlement of the United States and Canada is theft, doesn't that same argument apply to the Spanish and Portuguese settlement of Mexico, Central America and South America. Did the Dutch "steal" the Dutch West Indies, and the Spanish just "settle" the Dominican Republic and Cuba, etc? This is not tu quoque - it's an attempt to get at an understanding of the usage of the word "theft" and the word "stole" in this context and employ some sort of coherent meaning.

[Forty Two]

..it is only a matter of time before our prodigal son returns to the fold.

Jesus?

Jesus? He's busy mowing the lawn right now.

[pErvinalia]

It is the case because of the simple-minded who are unable to comprehend even that simple concept. Either you believe that your stuff belongs to you or you believe that someone else's stuff belongs to you.

Property is theft, and you stole your's from the injuns.

Property is theft? From whom?

From those who never had a chance to own it. Most notably future generations.

Well, that appears to be a revised definition of the word "theft" which involves taking property from another person who owns that property. It's not generally theft to buy a car before someone else has a chance to buy it.

Well that was the point of Prodhoun's thesis. It was to make people think outside of their narrow biases.

I'm quite certain which side of that statement you fall into, and it ain't the "what's mine is mine" side.

...so when your forefathers stole the land, did they abide by this principle?

Everyone's forefathers stole land. The Romans stole from the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons from the Romans, the Normans from the Anglo-Saxons, etc. Are you giving England back to the genetically Celt, or is that too far back in the past?

What about Canada? Should all the descendants of Brits pack up and leave?

tu quoque. Seth said "or you believe that that someone else's stuff belongs to you". Clearly Seth believes that someone else's stuff belongs to him, when it was his forefathers that were involved.

Well, no, because you're talking past each other there. Seth does not argue from the perspective of identity politics. I.e., he does not think a group of people owns property in Canada or the United States because people of the same race or color effectively took over the property in generations past. My understanding is that he argues from the perspective that individuals own land and other property, not races. It's more of a Progressive identity politics thing to say that "white people stole the land" from the indians. It's interesting, though, that the Progressives don't say that Mexicans who illegally enter the US "steal the land" from native Americans when they buy property here. They don't even make the same kinds of arguments that, like, Mexicans need to give their land back to the native Mexicans. Instead, the Progressive thinks Mexico is justified in its claims to the United States southwest, including California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, etc. It's the "whites" who stole the land.

This is not tu quoque, it's analyzing the issue. There should be some argument that makes sense behind various assertions, and if the suggestion is that that the European settlement of the United States and Canada is theft, doesn't that same argument apply to the Spanish and Portuguese settlement of Mexico, Central America and South America. Did the Dutch "steal" the Dutch West Indies, and the Spanish just "settle" the Dominican Republic and Cuba, etc? This is not tu quoque - it's an attempt to get at an understanding of the usage of the word "theft" and the word "stole" in this context and employ some sort of coherent meaning.

It's a tu quoque because we all know your MO. Point out an imagined hypocrisy like that somehow defends your own argument. What the Dutch, Spanish, Neanderthals, etc did is irrelevant to whether what the early US and Canadians did was theft.