Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:03 pm

Libertarian socialism is essentially synonymous with anarchism.
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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:26 pm

QED.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:30 pm

I.e. it's anarchism, not socialism. (although, I guess technically anarchism along with all the far left ideologies fall under the broad umbrella of "socialist" type systems).
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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:42 pm

Proudhon called himself a socialist. He was an early thinker on libertarian socialism. Jesus, man. FFS.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:50 pm

FFS. Your own link pointed out that he was the father of anarchism and the first person to call himself an anarchist. He was an anarchist when he wrote "Property". From your EB link:
Now, with leisure to formulate his ideas, he wrote his first significant book, Qu’est-ce que la propriété? (1840; What Is Property?, 1876). This created a sensation, for Proudhon not only declared, “I am an anarchist”; he also stated, “Property is theft!”
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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:59 pm

My link also pointed out that he was an early thinker in libertarian socialist, comes from the Socialist school and CALLED HIMSELF A SOCIALIST.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:59 pm

My link also pointed out that he was an early thinker in libertarian socialist, comes from the Socialist school and CALLED HIMSELF A SOCIALIST. Dude, maybe he was a combination of both due to the overlap of libertarian socialism and anarchist thought. It's kind of like Emma goldman and Bakunin -- revolutionary anarchists, but they were collectivists - the anarcho part of the split in communism back in the day....
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:36 am

Forty Two wrote:My link also pointed out that he was an early thinker in libertarian socialist, comes from the Socialist school and CALLED HIMSELF A SOCIALIST.
:fp: You just can't admit you are wrong, can you?! He was an anarchist when he wrote "property is freedom". You wanted to know why socialists don't promote that thought? I told you. It wasn't a socialist who said it. :fp:
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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:40 am

Forty Two wrote:My link also pointed out that he was an early thinker in libertarian socialist, comes from the Socialist school and CALLED HIMSELF A SOCIALIST. Dude, maybe he was a combination of both due to the overlap of libertarian socialism and anarchist thought. It's kind of like Emma goldman and Bakunin -- revolutionary anarchists, but they were collectivists - the anarcho part of the split in communism back in the day....
All the early anarchists had to be socialists first, as anarchism didn't even exist. Anarchism as a political movement was a schism within the socialist movement. They rejected the dominant view of socialists at the time regarding vanguardism and authoritarianism and the like, and that's why they were distinctly not socialists any more. Yes, Prodhoun started as a socialist. But when he wrote the book from which you are quoting he was no longer a socialist but an anarchist. AS YOUR OWN FUCKING LINK CONFIRMS. And with that I'm done trying to point out basic facts to you while you argue that up is down and black is white.
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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:48 pm

This is just getting repetitive. He was a libertarian socialist, and also called himself an anarchist. Happy?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Hermit » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:18 pm

Forty Two wrote:This is just getting repetitive. He was a libertarian socialist, and also called himself an anarchist. Happy?
As happy as with North Korea calling itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Mother Teresa calling herself a Christian and you calling yourself a moderate.
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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:28 pm

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1701737

pErvin wrote Libertarian Socialism is essentially synonymous with anarchism. Yet, somehow he claims that I am wrong for saying Proudhon was a libertarian socialist, because pErvin says Proudhon was an anarchist, which he also says is essentially synonymous with libertarian socialism.

When words are essentially synonymous, and the person in question has referred to himself as both....he's an anarchist but not a libertarian socialist. Understood!
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Hermit » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:11 pm

Forty Two wrote:pErvin wrote...
Dunno who your post is addressed to, but I just point out that labelling oneself as something or another does not make the label a true description.

As for your dispute with rEv about anarchy and libertarian socialism, I'll leave you two to duke it out. Any type of anarchy is hopelessly unworkable rubbish on anything other than a microscopic scale. My care factor regarding semantic and/or conceptual disagreements about it is correspondingly small.

I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:21 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:pErvin wrote...
Dunno who your post is addressed to, but I just point out that labelling oneself as something or another does not make the label a true description.
It doesn't make it a false description, either, and it's pretty well established what Proudhon was, and he wasn't exactly an idiot, so it may well be trusted that he knew when he called himself a socialist that he was a socialist. If you have some evidence that he was not really that, then bring it on.

My point, however, is that I've got this pErvin coming at me demanding I "admit that I'm wrong" for calling Proudhon a socialist. why this is important to him, I have no fucking idea. However, pErvin thinks the guy was an anarchist, which pErvin himself says is essentially synonymous with libertarian socialism, and he does not deny that Proudhon was considered one of the first proponents of libertarian socialism.

Given all that, where the fuck am I "wrong" about proudhon being a socialist? Proudhon said he was one. pErvin says Proudhon was something that is "essentially synonymous" with libertarian socialism. So..... where am I "wrong?"
Hermit wrote: As for your dispute with rEv about anarchy and libertarian socialism, I'll leave you two to duke it out. Any type of anarchy is hopelessly unworkable rubbish on anything other than a microscopic scale. My care factor regarding semantic and/or conceptual disagreements about it is correspondingly small.
Fair enough - but your analogy of the DPRK not really being "democratic" really had nothing to do with the discussion of whether Proudhon was a socialist. I agree with you, of course, that calling one's country democratic doesn't mean the country is democratic. I disagree that Mother Theresa calling herself a Christian doesn't mean she's a Christian. I mean, if she says she's a devotee of Christ and follower of the Christian religion, even if it isn't the same as any other denomination in existence, she's still a Christian, right? A denomination of one.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

Post by Hermit » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:55 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:Dunno who your post is addressed to, but I just point out that labelling oneself as something or another does not make the label a true description.
It doesn't make it a false description, either
Correct. And I did not make such a claim. You, on the other hand, said that Proudhon called himself a socialist and used that to support your claim that he was.
Forty Two wrote:he knew when he called himself a socialist that he was a socialist.
Gotta love me an argument from authority.
Forty Two wrote:If you have some evidence that he was not really that, then bring it on.
I would if my care factor was not so minuscule. Did you miss reading that part of the post? Was it too long for you to hold your attention, or has your habit to ignore bits that don't suit you become overwhelming?
Forty Two wrote:your analogy of the DPRK not really being "democratic" really had nothing to do with the discussion of whether Proudhon was a socialist.
You are correct again. However, the analogy has everything to do with my assertion that one is not a (insert label here) because one has described oneself as a (insert label here). The analogy of the DPRK has everything to do with that.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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