Trump and coal mines

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Forty Two
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Forty Two » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:47 pm

Hermit wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:China generates about 70% of its power from coal and that will go up 20%, or to about 84% , by 2020.
Where do you get those figures from?
Forty Two wrote:China to increase coal fire capacity by 20% - http://thehill.com/policy/energy-enviro ... 20-percent
You do realise that even if one accepts the increase in coal fire capacity to be 20%, the percentage of its power from coal and that will not go up 20%, or to about 84% of total electricity generation by 2020. in fact, the link you cite says that it will go down to 55%. In part that has probably something to do with China investing 120 billion dollars a year in renewable energy generation.

By actually posting links that contradict your assertions you have confirmed that your increasing hysteria regarding anything "left" has caused you to take leave of the real world for the world of "alternative facts".[/quote]

Fair point - and that was an error on my part there. The 84% is not correct, because while they are increasing the coal generated power by 20%, their total power usage is going way up, so other sources are growing even faster. That does not change the fact that the coal portion is increasing 20%, and they are constructing coal fired plants like they're going out of style.

Also, "By comparison, the agency said it would increase non-fossil fuel sources from about 12% to 15% of the country’s energy mix over the same period." So, that means fossil fuel sources, like coal, oil and other fossil-derived fuels, will make up 85% of the power generating sources. So, while not coal exclusively, they are still massively relying on fossil fuels. the "non fossil fuel sources" are increasing from 12 to 15%.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:38 am

Forty Two wrote:
Animavore wrote: This is not merely a political argument over policy. What the Repubs are doing is simply immoral and shows a selfish and callous disregard for people and nature. And as such they should be treated as a hostile government willing to attack and poison their own people every bit as much as Assad.
If you oppose Obama's energy policy you're immoral. Yes, put in those terms, it's not merely a political argument anymore. It's a religious one.
A moral argument isn't (necessarily) a religious one.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Hermit » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:02 am

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:China generates about 70% of its power from coal and that will go up 20%, or to about 84% , by 2020.
Where do you get those figures from?
Forty Two wrote:China to increase coal fire capacity by 20% - http://thehill.com/policy/energy-enviro ... 20-percent
You do realise that even if one accepts the increase in coal fire capacity to be 20%, the percentage of its power from coal and that will not go up 20%, or to about 84% of total electricity generation by 2020. in fact, the link you cite says that it will go down to 55%. In part that has probably something to do with China investing 120 billion dollars a year in renewable energy generation.

By actually posting links that contradict your assertions you have confirmed that your increasing hysteria regarding anything "left" has caused you to take leave of the real world for the world of "alternative facts".
Fair point - and that was an error on my part there. The 84% is not correct, because while they are increasing the coal generated power by 20%, their total power usage is going way up, so other sources are growing even faster. That does not change the fact that the coal portion is increasing 20%, and they are constructing coal fired plants like they're going out of style.

Also, "By comparison, the agency said it would increase non-fossil fuel sources from about 12% to 15% of the country’s energy mix over the same period." So, that means fossil fuel sources, like coal, oil and other fossil-derived fuels, will make up 85% of the power generating sources. So, while not coal exclusively, they are still massively relying on fossil fuels. the "non fossil fuel sources" are increasing from 12 to 15%.
So now you realise that your initial claim – power from coal and that will go up from 70% to about 84% by 2020 – is total bullshit, that it will actually go down. That's cool.

So, what next? Look at facts for a change? No such luck. You change the goal posts instead by claiming that China is constructing coal fired plants like they're going out of style. Yes, China is constructing new coal fired power plants, but it has also cancelled 103 planned projects, (54 gigawatts) on some of which construction had already begun. The New York Times reports that this comes on top of last year's halt to construction work on 30 large coal-fired power plants (17 gigawatts). Your statement is just an emotion-laden red herring. Bereft of any concrete figures it seeks to belittle the fact that the percentage of coal-generated electricity has been dropping for a number of years and will keep dropping in the years to come. Looks to me like coal-powered electricity production is going out of fashion.

As for your claim that fossil fuel sources make up 85%, you're wrong too. If you download the relevant spreadsheet from BP's Statistical Review of World Energy you'll discover that they made up 86% in 2015. :razzle: You'll also discover that in the same year the figure for the USA was 84%. So, I ask rhetorically: What's your point?

That China is not pulling its weight? Compared to whom? And where is your evidence anyway? Have a look at another page of BP's site, which contains some quick facts about China. It points out that whereas growth in energy consumption has risen by 1.5% over the previous year, coal consumption has dropped by 1.5%. It also mentions the fact that "while coal remains the dominant fuel, accounting for 64% of China’s energy consumption, this was the lowest share on record and down from recent highs of 74% in the mid-2000s". On the other hand there was a 69.7% growth in China’s solar power production since the previous year. Now, coal production in the USA declined by 10.4% in the same time, but Trump is determined to reverse the trend, isn't he? So I ask again: Compared to whom is China not pulling its weight?

I'm not saying everything is alright with China. I most certainly would not want to live there. But for crying out loud, shed your ideological blinkers. They blind you from seeing facts, and the facts you don't see are not exclusively hidden in far left sites – unless of course BP, Wikipedia, The New York Times et cetera are far left.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Hermit » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:04 am

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
Animavore wrote:This is not merely a political argument over policy. What the Repubs are doing is simply immoral and shows a selfish and callous disregard for people and nature. And as such they should be treated as a hostile government willing to attack and poison their own people every bit as much as Assad.
If you oppose Obama's energy policy you're immoral. Yes, put in those terms, it's not merely a political argument anymore. It's a religious one.
A moral argument isn't (necessarily) a religious one.
Yes it is. You can't have morality without religion, dontchaknow?
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Animavore » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:08 am

It should be obvious that wilfully polluting the atmosphere knowing full well the consequences and rolling back environmental protections which will lead to poison being dumped into rivers is immoral. Saying its a religious argument is a convenient hand wave. A way of avoiding justifying actions which will lead to catastrophe. Because, of course, there is no justifying it.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Hermit » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:17 am

Animavore wrote:It should be obvious that wilfully polluting the atmosphere knowing full well the consequences and rolling back environmental protections which will lead to poison being dumped into rivers is immoral. Saying its a religious argument is a convenient hand wave. A way of avoiding justifying actions which will lead to catastrophe. Because, of course, there is no justifying it.
What?!!!?????!??

I mean,
Image
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Tero » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:48 pm


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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Animavore » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:54 pm

What are they waiting for? They were duped, pure and simple.

They need to get a check on that reality.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Tero » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:15 am

Three Coal Plants Close the Same Day Trump Said to Exit the Paris Climate Agreement

Another reminder that the federal government can do little to save the coal industry.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... imate-deal

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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by rainbow » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:57 am

Tero wrote:Three Coal Plants Close the Same Day Trump Said to Exit the Paris Climate Agreement

Another reminder that the federal government can do little to save the coal industry.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... imate-deal
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Tero » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:44 pm

Coal coal coal. The 50 000 coal jobs are not real
“Well, frankly, George, I think the whole question is an effort of trying to get it off the point,” Pruitt said. The bottom line, he said, is that the Paris agreement cost the U.S. jobs.

“We’ve had over 50,000 … coal jobs, mining jobs created in this country” in the last few months, Pruitt said. “This president’s deregulation agenda, particularly in the energy space, is making a substantial impact around the country.”

Wallace challenged Pruitt on appearing to prioritize coal-sector jobs over green-energy jobs. “Aren’t you and the president talking about protecting the horse and buggy just as cars come online,” Wallace asked.

“No,” Pruitt responded. “I think what’s also being missed here is when you look at how we generate power in this country, we need fuel diversity.”
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:44 am

I take it Pruitt is a coal owner.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Tero » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:09 am

One mine, 70 jobs.
https://www.google.com/amp/insider.foxn ... icle/56330

That will be the end of it. Presidents Pence and Ryan (2017 and 2018-2020) won't open any.

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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Tero » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:53 am

"Clean coal" plant turns out to be just syngas. It makes H2 that you burn but makes equal amounts of CO2 to store.??.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integra ... ined_cycle

Plan appears scrapped. It will burn natural gas instead:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/first ... ar-BBD0wRP

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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Tero » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:33 am

With no lump of coal in hand:
Trump said the US had an “extraordinary energy abundance”, including “more than 250 years’ worth of clean, beautiful coal”. This bounty had been neglected due to Obama-imposed restrictions, the president said, adding that sweeping away various regulations would bring about “American energy dominance”.

“We will be dominant,” said Trump, whose administration has lifted a ban on new coal mining on public land, crafted an executive order calling for more offshore drilling and approved the controversial Dakota Access and Keystone XL pipelines.

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