Sexual molestation?

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Hermit
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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Hermit » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:54 am

Blind groper wrote:I think it seriously unlikely that false memory syndrome has been a part of determining that reasonable doubt.
Got any facts to back your "thinking" up with it?

Historically speaking, false memory has been taken into account in court cases. Examples: Gary Ramona, Joseph Pacely, a couple of acquittals here, and now I can't be bothered to list more. They are easy enough to find yourself if you are so inclined.

There are plenty of other accusations that have been thrown out of court precisely because memories turned out to be false. The issue of "false memory" is not addressed in many cases because memory is not a factor in convicting someone of an offence unless it is corroborated by other evidence. The letter Rolf Harris wrote to one of his victims comes to mind, for instance.
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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by rainbow » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:49 am

I am going to get myself hated by the feminists on this forum!
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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by mistermack » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:13 am

I think the vast majority of these claims are just scammers who want money.

Some might be cases of false memory. And I've actually done that myself. It happens.
A friend told me a story years ago of something that happened to him. When I was a salesman, I found the story a convenient one to tell, if the conversation started to flag, so I re-told it a lot of times, as if it happened to me. [ salesmen will tell you anything ].

Some years later, I recounted the same story back to the guy who originally told it to me. I'd actually forgotten that it was a story, I thought it was a real memory. True fact.

He gave me a funny stare, and said '' that's weird, EXACTLY the same thing happened to me '',
I was dead embarassed when I worked out what happened.

It's not exactly the same thing as this though. It was the repetition, I think, that made me forget that the story was not really mine. And it was a harmless tale to tell punters, not something important like being raped or assaulted. I think that would take a lot more to become a false memory.

But I suppose if you start lying to yourself, after some years, the same thing can happen.

Someone can get treated a bit badly by some celebrity, just get fucked and dismissed. They can change it in their heads to coercion to make themselves feel less of a slag. And end up believing it.
It can happen.

But the bottom line is that none of these cases are safe, after tens of years of saying nothing.
Maybe someone did get raped or assaulted. But hard cheese. If they didn't report it then, it's their own stupid fault.

It's just not safe to convict after all those years. Especially when you are talking about such a grey area as consent. It's far too easy to change the details just slightly in your head.
The difference between coercion and persuasion can be tiny. And often is.
Some women like a bit of both. And that's a fact.
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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Blind groper » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:43 pm

Hermit

There are hundreds of situations where a case has been thrown out because a witness memory was found to be false. Including death row cases. However, that generally happens only when independent evidence is found, like new DNA evidence.

We are talking of a situation here where hundreds, if not 1000 or more women are sexually exploited (willingly at the time) and many years later a few come forward to claim rape.

It is not in the least uncommon for a woman who willingly shares sex with a guy to regret it later. Celebrities have enormous emotional 'pull' over women, and many will joyfully go to bed with the guy. However, they are then dumped. The guy will not see them, talk to them, or (probably) even think about them ever again. But they will not be so sanguine about what happened.

It only takes 1 woman in 50 who has been treated like that, to modify her memory into an account of rape, for that celebrity to be in deep trouble. And I repeat. The women involved are quite sincere. They will have a firm memory of rape, after all those years of regretting and pondering the incident.

If a dozen women turn up in court, all saying they were raped by the same guy, what are the chances he will escape? Pretty damn slim, I suspect.

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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Seth » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:43 am

Blind groper wrote:The thing is that the accused is supposed to get the benefit of the doubt and not to be found guilty if there is 'reasonable doubt'. I think it seriously unlikely that false memory syndrome has been a part of determining that reasonable doubt.
Actually, the defendant is presumed to be innocent unless and until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and a years or decades old memory sans forensic or corroborating physical evidence should always generate reasonable doubt.
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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Blind groper » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:10 am

To Seth

The problem is that a jury will normally consider a dozen witnesses to be evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

The principle of beyond reasonable doubt is a good one, but is far from perfect, as the many innocent people executed for crimes they did not commit show.

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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:08 am

This thread ... from a guy named "Blind Groper" ... gosh.
these are things we think we know
these are feelings we might even share
these are thoughts we hide from ourselves
these are secrets we cannot lay bare.

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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Hermit » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:38 am

^^^ Now that you mention it, :hehe:
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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Blind groper » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:08 am

"Blind groper" is an entirely appropriate name for a discussion about justice. Above the Old Bailey court house in London is a statue of the old Roman goddess of justice, called Justicia. She has a bandage over her eyes, to represent blind, or impartial, justice, that is not influenced by emotion. She carries a balance in one hand to weigh up evidence, and a sword in the other to police her justice.

I am a groper after the truth, and I try to be objective and unemotional (blind) about the discovery of truth.

On the other hand, I may have chosen that name because I had a convenient photo of a groper fish that was blind.

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See The Light

Post by piscator » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:31 am

Bam. Now you're a Jew.

Image

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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Hermit » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:37 am

I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by mistermack » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:25 am

I thoroughly disagree with the court of appeal judges.
They have failed to see it from a blind man's perspective.

When you can see, if you feel horny, you can ogle women. Nobody knows that you're doing it, if you are wearing underpants.
All a blind man has is touch and sound. We all know how unreliable sound is. You talk to some woman on the phone, and she sounds incredibly sexy. Then you see her in the flesh and she's a real dog.

So all he can rely on is his sense of touch. He might even have been checking that she wasn't a sleeping burglar. It can happen.

They should have included a little fellow feeling in their decision.
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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:15 am

Blind groper wrote:"Blind groper" is an entirely appropriate name for a discussion about justice. Above the Old Bailey court house in London is a statue of the old Roman goddess of justice, called Justicia. She has a bandage over her eyes, to represent blind, or impartial, justice, that is not influenced by emotion. She carries a balance in one hand to weigh up evidence, and a sword in the other to police her justice.

I am a groper after the truth, and I try to be objective and unemotional (blind) about the discovery of truth.
No you aren't. You're blinded by your ideology, biases and bigotry.
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© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:09 am

:funny: :funny: :funny: Physician, heal thyself!! :fp:
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Re: Sexual molestation?

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:33 am

Blind groper wrote:"Blind groper" is an entirely appropriate name for a discussion about justice. Above the Old Bailey court house in London is a statue of the old Roman goddess of justice, called Justicia. She has a bandage over her eyes, to represent blind, or impartial, justice, that is not influenced by emotion. She carries a balance in one hand to weigh up evidence, and a sword in the other to police her justice.

I am a groper after the truth, and I try to be objective and unemotional (blind) about the discovery of truth.

On the other hand, I may have chosen that name because I had a convenient photo of a groper fish that was blind.
these are things we think we know
these are feelings we might even share
these are thoughts we hide from ourselves
these are secrets we cannot lay bare.

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