US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Social Darwinism derail

[mistermack]

?
You would argue that black is white. I wrote :

Well, if that is right, it PROVES beyond any doubt that IQ scores are not a measure of inherited intelligence in American Indians. If they were, the gap could not close. Obviously it was a gap of IQ test competence, not intelligence. [italics added]

How is it not obvious that I was talking about INHERITED intelligence? I made it perfectly clear from the start.

people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence

Drewish says nothing about inheritance or genetics there.

Ok, so you would rather abandon reality than admit your post was wrong.
Fair enough, now I know.

[Warren Dew]

?
You would argue that black is white. I wrote :

Well, if that is right, it PROVES beyond any doubt that IQ scores are not a measure of inherited intelligence in American Indians. If they were, the gap could not close. Obviously it was a gap of IQ test competence, not intelligence. [italics added]

How is it not obvious that I was talking about INHERITED intelligence? I made it perfectly clear from the start.

So you are saying that IQ scores, while unrelated to inherited intelligence, may be related to intelligence overall? That would make more sense, though it's not "perfectly clear" to me from your words.

people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence

Drewish says nothing about inheritance or genetics there.

Ok, so you would rather abandon reality than admit your post was wrong.

Speak for yourself. I still don't see the word "inherited" or "genetics" in the quote from Drewish.

[mistermack]

So you are saying that IQ scores, while unrelated to inherited intelligence, may be related to intelligence overall? That would make more sense, though it's not "perfectly clear" to me from your words.

I wouldn't call it "intelligence overall". I would call it mental ability. That's not the same as intelligence at all. It's something that can be improved, developed and honed during your lifetime. It's the combination of your inherited intelligence, and what you have learned. Of course IQ tests can be related to that. That's why people get better at IQ tests with practice. And why scores of populations can increase with social conditions.

I think intelligence is the quality of the brain that you were born with. ie, "inherited intelligence" is the ONLY type there is. That's why I don't think that IQ tests measure intelligence. They measure a certain type of mental ability.ie, IQ test competence. And each test measures a slightly different aspect of it.

people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence

Drewish says nothing about inheritance or genetics there.

Ok, so you would rather abandon reality than admit your post was wrong.

Speak for yourself. I still don't see the word "inherited" or "genetics" in the quote from Drewish.

So what else, apart from inherited genetics, does "African descent" mean?

[hadespussercats]

Well, if that is right, it PROVES beyond any doubt that IQ scores are not a measure of inherited intelligence in American Indians. If they were, the gap could not close. Obviously it was a gap of IQ test competence, not intelligence.

It proves nothing of the sort. Most likely it shows that impoverished living standards, such as those affecting the reservations of most native Americans when IQ tests were first developed, negatively impact intelligence, and thus IQ test results as well.

Which is another way of using Drewish's point to illustrate that IQ scores are not a measure of inherited intelligence, right?

Correct. Drewish has actually been careful to distinguish between IQ and intelligence differences, on the one hand, and any inheritance of those differences, on the other, something some of those responding to him don't seem to be picking up on.

Just as you didn't pick up on the post you were criticizing.
And I wouldn't mind a reminder of where Drewish was careful to make that distinction.
Here's one of his earliest posts :

So don't use IQ. Go find me ANY standardized test that you want and we'll use that. The disagreement is NOT over wether people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence, but rather why. I want the truth, political correctness be damned!

I don't see any distinction made there. Quite the opposite. Talking about people of African descent, clearly he's talking about their inherited intelligence.

Aren't we all of African descent, anyway?

[mistermack]

Aren't we all of African descent, anyway?

Good point.

[Hermit]

Aren't we all of African descent, anyway?

Good point.

Not really. Most racists believe in evolution. They'll argue that those people who moved out of Africa evolved more than the ones that stayed behind.

[Audley Strange]

See when people are using the term "of African descent" are they referring to people with African parents, Black people in general or specifically African Americans?

[Tyrannical]

Aren't we all of African descent, anyway?

Good point.

Not really. Most racists believe in evolution. They'll argue that those people who moved out of Africa evolved more than the ones that stayed behind.

Not really evolved more, but evolved differently in part due to different environmental circumstances

[Tyrannical]

See when people are using the term "of African descent" are they referring to people with African parents, Black people in general or specifically African Americans?

Of sub-Saharan African decent, of the Congoloid or Capoid race. Or more simply just Black people in general.

[Tyrannical]

What he (and I) would like to see is clear evidence that the IQ differential between ethnic groups is due to genetic differences between those groups.

That is still an open question, as I've said earlier. Determinations of what genes are correlated with various IQs and determinations of which genes vary over classical race categories will answer that question. Genetic sequencing will tell us. Until that point it is unknown. I was stating (in the post where I reference Tyrannical by name) that it is no less presumptuous to assume that such variations are not genetically based as it is to assume that they are. Now we can look at certain variations like that of Native Americans where the previous IQ gap has completely disappeared with increased living standards and conclude that this then must have been environmental. The large hold out concerning genetic variation amongst races is the sub saharan African population as it remains lower even when controlling for household income. This does not therefore mean that the sub saharan African population has an innately lower IQ, but since variations that clearly were not genetic have disappeared in other disadvantaged communities it suggests that the differences causing the variation in IQ are somehow distinct to the sub saharan African population. It's not a very "feel good" response I know, but I want the truth regardless of the consequences.

Whoa, when dive the Native American IQ gap disappear? There is still a large gap, unless you are looking at "Native Americans" that have majority European descent.
Native American IQ probably did increase, but the reason was extreme evolutionary pressure selecting for those that could operate at least in the periphery of White society.

The only way to genetically increase intelligence is to either favor high IQ individuals with increased reproductive opportunities, or to reduce opportunities (sterilize) in low IQ individuals. I'd be all in favor of a build a better Black race program, and you should be able to raise the average over time by just removing the dullest individuals from the gene pool. I'd also add remove the most criminally minded or violent, because there is more to a society than just intelligence.

[Warren Dew]

So you are saying that IQ scores, while unrelated to inherited intelligence, may be related to intelligence overall? That would make more sense, though it's not "perfectly clear" to me from your words.

I wouldn't call it "intelligence overall". I would call it mental ability. That's not the same as intelligence at all. It's something that can be improved, developed and honed during your lifetime. It's the combination of your inherited intelligence, and what you have learned. Of course IQ tests can be related to that. That's why people get better at IQ tests with practice. And why scores of populations can increase with social conditions.

I think intelligence is the quality of the brain that you were born with. ie, "inherited intelligence" is the ONLY type there is. That's why I don't think that IQ tests measure intelligence. They measure a certain type of mental ability.ie, IQ test competence. And each test measures a slightly different aspect of it.

I think your definition of "intelligence" to exclude nongenetic mental ability is unusual. Certainly I use the term "intelligence" as a rough synonym for "mental ability".

people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence

Drewish says nothing about inheritance or genetics there.

Ok, so you would rather abandon reality than admit your post was wrong.

Speak for yourself. I still don't see the word "inherited" or "genetics" in the quote from Drewish.

So what else, apart from inherited genetics, does "African descent" mean?

He's just using it as a way of identifying a racial group - negroes, or African Americans plus subsaharan Africans. There's no embedded assumption that genes for intelligence must be racially distributed like genes for skin color are.

[Warren Dew]

Whoa, when dive the Native American IQ gap disappear? There is still a large gap, unless you are looking at "Native Americans" that have majority European descent.

Source, please?

[Drewish]

Whoa, when dive the Native American IQ gap disappear? There is still a large gap, unless you are looking at "Native Americans" that have majority European descent.

Source, please?

The gap has closed when controlling for income And since I think we all can admit that environmental factors (especially access to educational resources) will impact the results of IQ test score, this would be the most accurate way to compare them. It is true that the average Native American IQ still lags behind, but if you control for income then it's actually above the white average at the same income level. I'm sorry I don't have the source handy as I'm posting from an odd place right now, I'll get back to you on that.

[Drewish]

You forgot to address the part about some human beings as being a waste of space and basically trash.

Some people are human trash. I think many here would agree that pedophile rapists are human trash for example. Some people concluded that I was stating that black people were human trash, and no, I did not mean that at all. I have hopefully stated that enough now that nobody is confused about that. I do however think that the incompetent who reproduce beyond their own means and willfully continue the cycle of poverty on other people's dime are human trash. I do not apologize for this opinion at all.

Also, the anger that seemed to drive it...what do you, a young, white, male, who has probably lived a pretty comfortable life have to be so angry about? I find it quite sad, and frankly, a bit scary.

So you assume that because of my age, race, and gender that you know what my life is like? Wow.

No, but if you have lived in poverty, or suffered discrimination in any way, then you show an utter lack of empathy and/or pure contempt (take your pick) for those who have. Still sad and scary to me.

I was born into a poor household and worked since I was 9 years old. I lent my parents a few thousand dollars at the age of 14 to help them buy their first house. I went to college on a merit based full tuition scholarship. I'm a fairly generous person and because I paid for things (with money I had earned) and because I'm a well spoken white guy, people assumed I came from money. I know how people treat those they think were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. I know how entitled the poor are and how they blame everyone but themselves for their own misfortune. I do hold contempt for the poor. I came from them, but I left that behind because I worked for it and I'm better than them. It's just that simple.

[Tyrannical]

Whoa, when dive the Native American IQ gap disappear? There is still a large gap, unless you are looking at "Native Americans" that have majority European descent.

Source, please?

The gap has closed when controlling for income And since I think we all can admit that environmental factors (especially access to educational resources) will impact the results of IQ test score, this would be the most accurate way to compare them. It is true that the average Native American IQ still lags behind, but if you control for income then it's actually above the white average at the same income level. I'm sorry I don't have the source handy as I'm posting from an odd place right now, I'll get back to you on that.

I've never heard of the gap being closed, nor can I recall any literature stating such. A cursory Google search didn't turn up anything either.
Controlling for income may be the result of affirmative action, where the unqualified are put into jobs or pay grades to satisfy arbitrary anti-discrimination laws. You must also control for admixture, someone that is 7/8's European descended but claims Native American ancestry would score closer on average to pure Whites.

Behavioral genetics is more than just IQ. Violence, promiscuity, criminality, and other characteristics are also factored in.