US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Social Darwinism derail

[mistermack]

It's like that in Britain. People delude themselves.
They REALLY believe that they are going to be one of the 1%, any day now. And the US especially has this myth that people get rich through their own talents and hard work. That's the dream that the mugs aspire to.

They see the headline people like Bill Gates, but never see how the MAJORITY of the rich got their money. By inheriting it. And investing the inherited wealth so that the work of other people KEEPS them rich. In fact, a vast number of people in the world today are working their guts out, to provide more and more income for the Saudi and Kuwaiti royal families. That's the downside of international capitalism.

[Drewish]

I'm not claiming that the majority of the super wealthy got there by there through hard work, just that the majority of the poor got there by either being sickly or incompetent. Evolution works on a "good enough" standard anyways.

Nothing to do with the fact that the Capitalist system, as it is, keeps the poor poor?
Evolution doesn't come into it. If you are born with little chance of proper education, and inherit no capital, you will in all probability spend your life making someone else rich. Someone who inherited a good education and plenty of capital.

I'm not against capitalism. I'm against inheritance.
I think that on death, someone's fortune should go into a fund that pays for education for the poorest kids.
Give people an equal start, and then let capitalism rip.

Want me to cite IQ test score differences between races that exist even when you control for family income? I will. Want me to cites studies showing high correlation of IQ with inheritance even within racial groups? I will. Want me to cite studies showing correlation between IQ test score and lifetime earning? I will.

All people are not equal. Evolution is still acting on humanity. The poor have more children. The poor are more religious. The poor commit more violent crime. The problem is in fact not this supposedly evil 1%, but the violent, ever growing in number, ever demanding more free shit paid for by others, uneducated poor. You can try to educate them out of poverty, but the costs are huge and for every few you save many others have reproduced to more than replace the numbers of those lifted out of poverty. You can try to tell people to have fewer children, but it will be the educated and those who bother to plan their families that listen. Those who ignorantly plop out kids and then expect others to foot the bill, or subscribe to a religious world view where condoms are evil so some such nonsense, they will continue to have more and more children, and through them have more and more of a say in this one person one vote system.

You are sewing the seeds of your own destruction by supporting these wastes of human space. Fuck'm. Let the human trash die off as it should and we'll all be better off for it. Evolution is not only true, it is just and right.

[mistermack]

Want me to cite IQ test score differences between races that exist even when you control for family income? I will. Want me to cites studies showing high correlation of IQ with inheritance even within racial groups? I will. Want me to cite studies showing correlation between IQ test score and lifetime earning? I will.

IQ scores? Absolute bollocks. If you think IQ scores mean anything, you're a sad case.

The only firm conclusion you can draw from IQ scores is that people who keep banging on about them are morons.

[maiforpeace]

You are sewing the seeds of your own destruction by supporting these wastes of human space. Fuck'm. Let the human trash die off as it should and we'll all be better off for it. Evolution is not only true, it is just and right.

Just and right? Oh, dear.

By the way, it's sowing not sewing. If you're going to make such dramatic statements at least spell them correctly.

[Drewish]

Want me to cite IQ test score differences between races that exist even when you control for family income? I will. Want me to cites studies showing high correlation of IQ with inheritance even within racial groups? I will. Want me to cite studies showing correlation between IQ test score and lifetime earning? I will.

IQ scores? Absolute bollocks. If you think IQ scores mean anything, you're a sad case.

The only firm conclusion you can draw from IQ scores is that people who keep banging on about them are morons.

So don't use IQ. Go find me ANY standardized test that you want and we'll use that. The disagreement is NOT over wether people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence, but rather why. I want the truth, political correctness be damned!

You are sewing the seeds of your own destruction by supporting these wastes of human space. Fuck'm. Let the human trash die off as it should and we'll all be better off for it. Evolution is not only true, it is just and right.

Just and right? Oh, dear.

By the way, it's sowing not sewing. If you're going to make such dramatic statements at least spell them correctly.

Attacking a typo as a way to target my argument without actually responding to it? Come now, you're better than that.

[maiforpeace]

You are sewing the seeds of your own destruction by supporting these wastes of human space. Fuck'm. Let the human trash die off as it should and we'll all be better off for it. Evolution is not only true, it is just and right.

Just and right? Oh, dear.

By the way, it's sowing not sewing. If you're going to make such dramatic statements at least spell them correctly.

Attacking a typo as a way to target my argument without actually responding to it? Come now, you're better than that.

Sorry Andrew, but I won't qualify that as a legitimate argument by responding to it. I see all humans as equals - you clearly don't.
Accusing me of being better than that won't do it either.

[mistermack]

So don't use IQ. Go find me ANY standardized test that you want and we'll use that. The disagreement is NOT over wether people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence, but rather why. I want the truth, political correctness be damned!

I would start with a spelling test.
Like whether the weather be hot, or whether the weather be cold, we'll weather the weather, whatever the weather, whether there's weather or not.

You failed. Again.

[Robert_S]

You are sewing the seeds of your own destruction by supporting these wastes of human space. Fuck'm. Let the human trash die off as it should and we'll all be better off for it. Evolution is not only true, it is just and right.

And when the obnoxious rich are killed off in a communist revolution, that is also evolution. Of course when the new bosses take over and thousands more die under the wise and benevolent dictatorship of the proletariat, that is also evolution.

"Fittest" just means not getting yourself killed off before you reproduce. That's at the core of evolution. This obsession some people have with power and money, that's just a sideshow. It can help you get laid sometimes I guess and if you don't use birth control it can give your genes an advantage. But the evolution game doesn't give a toss if you're on the top or bottom of the socioeconomic pile. It is only a a word we use to describe the changes that occur while passing genes forward in time. If the environment pressures your distant offspring to become so simple that they're damn near bacteria again and those bacteria end up surviving 'till the heat death of the universe then they won at evolution.

[maiforpeace]

So don't use IQ. Go find me ANY standardized test that you want and we'll use that. The disagreement is NOT over wether people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence, but rather why. I want the truth, political correctness be damned!

I would start with a spelling test.
Like whether the weather be hot, or whether the weather be cold, we'll weather the weather, whatever the weather, whether there's weather or not.

You failed.

That's not very descent of you.

[Tyrannical]

So don't use IQ. Go find me ANY standardized test that you want and we'll use that. The disagreement is NOT over whether people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence, but rather why. I want the truth, political correctness be damned!

It's genetic.
Some of the earliest IQ studies where of Blacks of varying admixture (pure through quadroons) going to an all black school, living in an all black neighborhood. The more white admixture, the closer they were to the white average. The Minnesota trans-racial adoption study should have put the question to rest.

If there was some "magic" social change that could make a difference it would have been found by now after all the money spent and research done.

[maiforpeace]

So don't use IQ. Go find me ANY standardized test that you want and we'll use that. The disagreement is NOT over whether people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence, but rather why. I want the truth, political correctness be damned!

It's genetic.
Some of the earliest IQ studies where of Blacks of varying admixture (pure through quadroons) going to an all black school, living in an all black neighborhood. The more white admixture, the closer they were to the white average. The Minnesota trans-racial adoption study should have put the question to rest.

If there was some "magic" social change that could make a difference it would have been found by now after all the money spent and research done.

How comforting, knowing you aren't alone in your racist views.

[Drewish]

So don't use IQ. Go find me ANY standardized test that you want and we'll use that. The disagreement is NOT over whether people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence, but rather why. I want the truth, political correctness be damned!

It's genetic.
Some of the earliest IQ studies where of Blacks of varying admixture (pure through quadroons) going to an all black school, living in an all black neighborhood. The more white admixture, the closer they were to the white average. The Minnesota trans-racial adoption study should have put the question to rest.

If there was some "magic" social change that could make a difference it would have been found by now after all the money spent and research done.

How comforting, knowing you aren't alone in your racist views.

So being open minded to the notion that it could be genetic makes me a racist now? Attention! Attention! Racism is not longer about how you treat people, or even what your views are, but you can be racist for NOT automatically agreeing with a PC conclusion without conclusive evidence!

[Tyrannical]

So don't use IQ. Go find me ANY standardized test that you want and we'll use that. The disagreement is NOT over whether people of African decent are well behind others in regards to intelligence, but rather why. I want the truth, political correctness be damned!

It's genetic.
Some of the earliest IQ studies where of Blacks of varying admixture (pure through quadroons) going to an all black school, living in an all black neighborhood. The more white admixture, the closer they were to the white average. The Minnesota trans-racial adoption study should have put the question to rest.

If there was some "magic" social change that could make a difference it would have been found by now after all the money spent and research done.

How comforting, knowing you aren't alone in your racist views.

Even if you are racist, you can still treat individuals accordingly to their own attributes.
But gee, I'm not used to having fans

[mistermack]

So being open minded to the notion that it could be genetic makes me a racist now? Attention! Attention! Racism is not longer about how you treat people, or even what your views are, but you can be racist for NOT automatically agreeing with a PC conclusion without conclusive evidence!

Nothing wrong with being open minded. But putting so much faith in IQ tests as a definitive measure of intelligence is just simple minded. Why don't you read up a bit on IQ tests before spouting that shit?

Intelligence is an incredibly complicated thing, it's not like your height, or weight. You simply can't measure it with a few squiggles on paper.
What you measure is the ability to do that particular IQ test, nothing more.
If that's what you want to know, then fine, it will tell you what you want to know.
But it won't tell you ANYTHING about races, not that races actually exist anyway.

You think that people only argue out of political correctness, that's bollocks. I argue, because of my contempt for IQ tests as a comparative measure of intelligence. Nothing more.

Find a test that REALLY measures inherent intelligence, and nothing else, and I'll be happy to discuss how different "races" perform.
But first you would have to define intelligence.

The reason I'm really dubious about races having different intelligence levels is the incredibly complicated nature of our brains.
White people have 99.999 odd percent the same genes as black people.
When it comes to skin colour, just a few genes can make the difference between black and white.
But when it comes to intelligence, a vast number of genes are involved in making the brain work.
There simply isn't the opportunity for racial differences to exist on such a scale.
As an individual, you may get lucky or unlucky on the mix of genes that you were born with. But at population level, the differences even themselves out.

That's why I pointed out previously the fact that you can have house cats and Tigers, Snow Leopards and Lynxes, all with similar intelligence levels. All shapes and sizes, and all are much more distantly related to each other than white men are to black men. Look at the difference in size between the brain of a tiger, and the brain of a house cat. But the intelligence level is the same.
It's because they have common ancestors. And the ancestry of all humans is incredibly closely matched.

[FBM]

It might be helpful to distinguish between evolution, a very, very slow process, and social darwinism, which is much closer to what certain racist philosophies describe: http://www.allaboutscience.org/what-is- ... sm-faq.htm

What is Social Darwinism?

Herbert Spencer, a 19th century philosopher, promoted the idea of Social Darwinism. Social Darwinism is an application of the theory of natural selection to social, political, and economic issues. In its simplest form, Social Darwinism follows the mantra of "the strong survive," including human issues. This theory was used to promote the idea that the white European race was superior to others, and therefore, destined to rule over them.

At the time that Spencer began to promote Social Darwinism, the technology, economy, and government of the "White European" was advanced in comparison to that of other cultures. Looking at this apparent advantage, as well as the economic and military structures, some argued that natural selection was playing out, and that the race more suited to survival was winning. Some even extended this philosophy into a micro-economic issue, claiming that social welfare programs that helped the poor and disadvantaged were contrary to nature itself. Those who reject any and all forms of charity or governmental welfare often use arguments rooted in Social Darwinism.

At its worst, the implications of Social Darwinism were used as scientific justification for the Holocaust. The Nazis claimed that the murder of Jews in World War II was an example of cleaning out the inferior genetics. Many philosophers noted evolutionary echoes in Hitler's march to exterminate an entire race of people. Various other dictators and criminals have claimed the cause of Social Darwinism in carrying out their acts. Even without such actions, Social Darwinism has proven to be a false and dangerous philosophy.

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