Memorial day musings

[Warren Dew]

I didn't personally have any compatriots who had to make the ultimate sacrifice, mostly because my commander in chief successfully implemented a policy of peace through strength:



Question is, does "peace through strength" still work in a multipolar world? Or do we necessarily have to accept more casualties? Would a shift to a balance of power approach result in fewer casualties, or more?

[mistermack]

Peace through strength is a very simplistic attitude.
It's really peace through the threat of violence. And in the nuclear stakes, the violence threatened is catastrophic.

Peace through threats is ok, until one day, somebody calls your bluff. And then finds out you weren't bluffing. And then all hell breaks loose.

I find in my day-to-day life, that peace through law, and respect for others, and good communication, and friendship, is better, safer, and longer-lasting than peace through threats.
THAT'S was what Reagan and Gorbachev REALLY showed the world. Against the judgement of their "expert" advisors.

That way, you reduce the fear levels on both sides. But you still keep your eyes open.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

People don't give you as much shit when you're strong. You can quibble about the meaning of that, but it remains a fact. Reagan's handlers devised the plan that drove the USSR broke, and ended the Cold War without nukes. Full props to those guys.

[Clinton Huxley]

I thought Maggoe Thatcher and her handbag defeated the Evil Empire?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I thought Maggoe Thatcher and her handbag defeated the Evil Empire?

She totally stole that from "Laugh-in".

[Hermit]

People don't give you as much shit when you're strong. You can quibble about the meaning of that, but it remains a fact. Reagan's handlers devised the plan that drove the USSR broke, and ended the Cold War without nukes. Full props to those guys.

I thought Charlie Wilson did that with the way he manipulated the US government into raising its aid to the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan from $10m to $1b.

As usual, the USA administration more than squandered the victory by not following it up in peace time. They dropped their involvement in Afghanistan as soon as the Soviet forces retreated, leaving that country in its usual medieval squalor, economically, socially and politically. Subsequently, Afghanistan bit the US in the bum. Big-time.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

People don't give you as much shit when you're strong. You can quibble about the meaning of that, but it remains a fact. Reagan's handlers devised the plan that drove the USSR broke, and ended the Cold War without nukes. Full props to those guys.

I thought Charlie Wilson did that with the way he manipulated the US government into raising its aid to the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan from $10m to $1b.

He had a part of it. It was far more ad hoc than most people realize. Hell, Ronnie may have vocalized the idea the first time, but he sure as hell had no idea how to implement it. It took men who could think in terms of money rather than what they could buy with that money to pull it off.

As usual, the USA administration more than squandered the victory by not following it up in peace time. They dropped their involvement in Afghanistan as soon as the Soviet forces retreated, leaving that country in its usual medieval squalor, economically, socially and politically. Subsequently, Afghanistan bit the US in the bum. Big-time.

The mission never really was to free Afghanistan, it was to fuck with the Soviets. So when the Soviets were out of there the politicians lost interest it it. Without some crystal ball work it's hard to see why we should have stuck around.

[mistermack]

People don't give you as much shit when you're strong. You can quibble about the meaning of that, but it remains a fact. Reagan's handlers devised the plan that drove the USSR broke, and ended the Cold War without nukes. Full props to those guys.

That's a completely naive view of history. It's just like someone crossing the Grand Canyon by tightrope, while you went the long way round. He can say, look, I've proved was right, I got there MUCH faster than you.

You've completely ignored what they risked. Just like any gambling addict.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

People don't give you as much shit when you're strong. You can quibble about the meaning of that, but it remains a fact. Reagan's handlers devised the plan that drove the USSR broke, and ended the Cold War without nukes. Full props to those guys.

That's a completely naive view of history. It's just like someone crossing the Grand Canyon by tightrope, while you went the long way round. He can say, look, I've proved was right, I got there MUCH faster than you.

You've completely ignored what they risked. Just like any gambling addict.

Gee, I guess I better go study me some history then, right?

[mistermack]

Gee, I guess I better go study me some history then, right?

Perhaps question what you read a bit more? Just because it's written, that doesn't make it true.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Gee, I guess I better go study me some history then, right?

Perhaps question what you read a bit more? Just because it's written, that doesn't make it true.

Well, I am a gullible dumbass, ain't I? Thanks for pointing that out.

[Hermit]

The mission never really was to free Afghanistan, it was to fuck with the Soviets. So when the Soviets were out of there the politicians lost interest it it. Without some crystal ball work it's hard to see why we should have stuck around.

Of course it was just a matter of Realpolitik. And yes, it was just about impossible to foresee the consequences, but Wilson's objective was to alleviate the horrible conditions the Afghanis lived in. Once the power games were won, the rest of the political machinery dropped him like a hot potato. No aid for reconstruction of any sort he sought was forthcoming. Then the Mujahadeen metamorphosed and among other things down came the World Trade Towers. Bum bitten.

To expand a bit more on that, the second oil war was a bit of a Pyrrhic victory, wasn't it? Saddam Hussein was a murderous dictator, but he kept the Taliban and al Queda out of his bailiwick. Look at it now. Soon after the US withdrawal from that country the Islamic extremists will oust the puppet government, and it will become a productive breeding and training ground for many an Islamic martyr and eventually a springboard for jihad after jihad.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The mission never really was to free Afghanistan, it was to fuck with the Soviets. So when the Soviets were out of there the politicians lost interest it it. Without some crystal ball work it's hard to see why we should have stuck around.

Of course it was just a matter of Realpolitik. And yes, it was just about impossible to foresee the consequences, but Wilson's objective was to alleviate the horrible conditions the Afghanis lived in. Once the power games were won, the rest of the political machinery dropped him like a hot potato. No aid for reconstruction of any sort he sought was forthcoming. Then the Mujahadeen metamorphosed and among other things down came the World Trade Towers. Bum bitten.

Agreed. The problem there was Wilson was pretty much the only one that cared, his base was too small to keep the effort up. "Time to move on" is a common meme in Congress.

To expand a bit more on that, the second oil war was a bit of a Pyrrhic victory, wasn't it? Saddam Hussein was a murderous dictator, but he kept the Taliban and al Queda out of his bailiwick. Look at it now. Soon after the US withdrawal from that country the Islamic extremists will oust the puppet government, and it will become a productive breeding and training ground for many an Islamic martyr and eventually a springboard for jihad after jihad.

Unintended consequences are one reason crystal ball gazing is so popular, they want to see what will happen down the road if they do something NOW. It's a method of avoiding careful consideration of possible results of one's actions.

[Tero]

Can I get Starbucks today or do I need to use gas station coffee?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Can I get Starbucks today or do I need to use gas station coffee?

Starbucks will be open.