Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Trolldor » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:30 pm

Yes there is. The right-wingers in American congress have been supporting the Tea Baggers' attacks on Democrats.

Don't even have to leave Merkun shores.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:30 pm

heyzeus wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Ian wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:C.E.S., you think the "Peace Movement" was violent? Or are you just making this up as you go along?
He's 20. How well do you think he really understands the world around him?
We need more graphic novels on historical matters. :cranky:
Joe Sacco at your service! I could have sworn CES admitted he isn't really twenty in another thread...
Admitted? I disclosed that fact, yes. A lot of people have their wrong age on here - I've seen people enter all sorts of numbers that are not their true age.

I'm not sure why it matters what age we are, unless you plan on discounting an argument because of the age of the person making the argument....

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Chinaski » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:31 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Chinaski wrote:
1) Were Bush and co. to be tried in a war tribunal, they'd be found guilty of crimes against humanity and executed. Were they to be tried by the Strasbourg court, they'd get life in prison.
Let's discuss it - start a thread. I am absolutely sure you are wrong about that. I'll take you on in that debate. Are you willing? Start the thread and let's do it.
Chinaski wrote:
2) The left-wing media does not call for violence.
Never said it did....Neither does the right wing media (e.g. Fox News).
Chinaski wrote:
It doesn't deliberately mislead and mangle facts for its own political agenda.
:funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:

Only because you don't question what they say.
Chinaski wrote:
Unlike the right wing media. I'm referring to mainstream tv channels in the states- of course Bolshevik Underground Radio is going to be different. -.-''
MSNBC folks like Olbermann and the gang are quite adept at misleading and deceiving for their agenda.
Chinaski wrote:
3) The outrage against people like the Tea Party Protesters isn't due to a sense of "how dare they criticize the president!", it's due to frustration at seeing the democratic process being hijacked by demagoguery, ignorance and instinctive violence.
By those with whom you disagree. You have no problem when the democratic process is being hijacked by those with whom you agree.

Further, the tea partiers - as stupid as they are - are ENGAGING in the democratic process. They are as entitled to protest, write, speak and express themselves politically as you and anyone else.
Chinaski wrote:
Obama is much more of a socialist than his predecessor was- but socialism is NOT A BAD THING.
Says you. It is not antidemocratic to be against socialist economics and socialism. To many people, it is a bad thing. And, your opinion to the contrary is not a "fact." It's a value judgment. You like socialism. Good for you. That is your right.
Chinaski wrote:
Apart from that, his platform is, by objective standards, completely centrist.
By objective standards, it is left of center in almost all respects. The only thing I would consider objectively centrist is his war policy.
Chinaski wrote:
Bush's platform brought us much closer to a totalitarian state-
See, there you go - you think your hyperbole is "objective."
Chinaski wrote:
the patriot act,
Note, the Patriot Act is still in force, and the Democrats have the White House and the House and the Senate. Obama support it, obviously, since he signed into law its extension.
Chinaski wrote:
an illegal war to divert from domestic issues,
It wasn't illegal, and it's your opinion that it was a diversion. Many others think that he had it planned from the outset of his administration (and therefore not as a diversion from domestic issues since he would have just taken office... Many others think Bush was sincere in that the correct course of action was to pursue international terrorist organizations of global reach and their state sponsors, along with loose-cannon dictators with their sites on catastrophic weapons.
Chinaski wrote:
an abundance of moralizing non-issues like abortion and gay rights to polarize the electorate and FURTHER distract from real issues, etc.
Obama polarizes the electorate as well. That's nothing new for politics.
Chinaski wrote:
Calling Bush a fascist is a bit exaggerated,
A bit?
Chinaski wrote:
but by no means a long stretch of the imagination.
No more or less so than calling Obama a Marxist socialist.
Chinaski wrote:
The two positions are not on equal footing, nor do they deserve the same amount of respect as far as being "opinions" go.
Others may think your opinion deserves respect. We are all free to respect, or not respect, what we like.
Chinaski wrote:
4) Common protests regarding death panels
The "death panel" label was placed on an actual provision of the health care bill. Here's an article discussing the Senate's decision to drop that provision: http://www.lifenews.com/bio2920.html - calling it a "death panel" was hyperbole. Something you don't object to when it is directed in a direction that you support.
Chinaski wrote: and Obama's alleged Islamism,
You are pretending that this is something that anyone but a few crackpots ever alleged. The mainstream right wing media didn't give it one second's credence. Some old lady stands up in a town hall meeting, and is immediately put in her place by McCain, and your harping all over it?
Chinaski wrote:
Communism, Fascism and Socialism, all at the same time (because apparently these things are not mutually exclusive >.<)
Why do you object to that? Your side said those things about Bush - Fascism, Naziism, totalitarianism, dictator, king - etc. Does the argument and debate only have to be civil when it comes to your guy?
Chinaski wrote:
abound among the teabaggers,
Sure do. I agree. The teabaggers call him a marxist and a communist all the time. They don't tie a noose around his neck though and set him on fire, like the liberals did of Bush, do they?
Chinaski wrote:
and it doesn't matter how much you defend someone's "right to their opinion"- if they're wrong, they're wrong, and these people are so full of fucking shit it's unbelievable.
Are you referring to the leftist "Bush Lied People Died" people who set fire to his effigy and falsely claimed he was a Nazi and a fascist? Those guys? Or, is it just the ones you disagree with?

If you're wrong, you're wrong. And, you are wrong about the Iraq War being illegal. Like I said above, I'll debate you on that any day of the week. Start the thread and post your argument as to how and why the war is and was illegal, and please specify whether you think it is still illegal and why.
I can't argue this to the extent it deserves now, but a few points:

Bill O'Reilly on Fox News called for the murder of George Tiller, and Glenn Beck did that stunt with the baseball bat calling for violent rioting.

Socialism is necessary to maintain basic human rights that are recognized worldwide (in the advanced world, at least) as being imperative to the wellbeing of the human race. It's not my opinion.

Bush's war went against international law, and there are many documented cases of American troops blatantly violating international laws on warfare (I refer you again to Monbiot's work).

When did Democrats hijack the democratic process? Chances are, I disagree with that too.

Only an American would consider Obama's platform left of center. Anywhere else he'd be the dreamboy of the center.

I'm aware of Obama extending the Patriot Act, and it pisses me off.

Bush engaged in proto-fascist initiatives- ergo, he can be called a fascist more than Obama, who hasn't done anything remotely Marxist at all, can be called a Marxist.

Obama's alleged Islamism is touted all the time by Republicans and Libertarians.


Beyond that, how about you address and argue against the entirety of my argument, and not attempt to dissect it by presenting irrelevant answers to singular elements in my argument? You said nothing to answer my overall point, you merely tried to subvert my position with red herrings and ad hocs.
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That hangs his heid and a' that
The coward slave, we pass him by
We dare be puir for a' that.

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:33 pm

born-again-atheist wrote:You know what I see in the uneducated right-wing masses? Severe levels of illiteracy, an incredibly flawed understanding of history and the wilful submission to a fabricated history. That is far more threatening than any twenty-something year old's badly-drawn placard.
And it's proved true time and time again.
I see that in the masses in general. The left wing in general holds no claim to superior knowledge than the right wing. The average IQ is about 100. Most people are stupid and uneducated, and there is plenty of misinformation and historical misunderstandings and oversimplifications from the left too.

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:33 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:I'm not sure why it matters what age we are, unless you plan on discounting an argument because of the age of the person making the argument....
The fact that you're making this up as you go along is the factor we're working on here. You're simply bullshitting us, making up stuff as you go along. Freshman antics. And it's tedious, boorish and absurd.
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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Trolldor » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:35 pm

Really? Because I don't recall the Main-stream left calling for Bush's Birth Certificate.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by MissingNo. » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:36 pm

Chinaski wrote:Only an American would consider Obama's platform left of center. Anywhere else he'd be the dreamboy of the center.
Not even! Obama is far more right-leaning than that. In the context of American politics, he should be considered center-right. On the scale of global industrialized civilization, he's pretty right-wing.

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Trolldor » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:39 pm

American Politics essentially works like this:

If you don't have corporate interests ahead of theinterests of the people, then you're left-wing.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by RuleBritannia » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:39 pm

:lol: Man this thread cracks me up.

You got the right wingers with their "peaceful" protesters holding up stupid signs with laugh out fucking loud bad spelling and grammer about made up "marxist" bullshit and general whack-job conspiracies.

Then you got the left wingers with their "violent" protesters holding up their stupid signs about killing George Bush without a trial and general wasting of tax payers money by being twats so extra police have to be called.

But I think the most :funny: part of this thread is that some people hate those on the other side of the political spectrum so much that they would actually defend the actions of those on their "side", instead of just calling them all arseholes and idiots.
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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Ian » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:40 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: And, left wingers are far more prone to use violence over the last 50 years than right leaning folks.
Unmitigated bullshit.
Concur. Maybe we should start talking about American militias, white supremacists, pro-life activists, Timothy McVeigh, etc. There's no shortage of information on how violent the right has been.
The difference is that nobody in mainstream politics defends those people....

Weather Underground, the Symbionese Liberation Army, and the Armed Forces for Puerto Rican National Liberation (FALN) (bombings and kidnappings)....Animal Liberation Front... socialist Black Blocs and others that riot and attack people and property during antiglobalization protests... Earth Liberation Front (firebombing construction sites, logging companies, car dealerships and food science labs).

Will you attribute the left wing groups to the mainstream left, too?
Of course not. And I wasn't attributing the groups I mentioned to the mainstream right. :roll:

You're convinced the left is more prone to violence. I'm absolutely convinced otherwise. I don't think either of us is going to convince the other. But... you didn't say anything to my offer to discuss the broader trends of ignorance and fear-mongering. Would you like to discuss polls which show just how many rank-and-file ordinary conservatives really think Obama is a Socialist/foreigner/muslim/etc.? The numbers I've heard are pretty disconcerting. And there is a definitive link between them and between the visible behavior of the vocal minorities on the right.

(BTW, why are you lying about your age? I'll admit that looking down on the opinions of a 20-yr old is a fault of mine (I value genuine experience in the world as well as academic accomplishment); but knowing that claiming to be very young might undermine your credibility (sorry Chinaski), why bother? You're obviously much older than 20, unless you remember witnessing anti-Gulf War protests when you were an infant.) :think:

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:43 pm

Ian wrote:Coito, you've dug up a fair amount of stuff indicating that not everyone who's left-of-center always behaves nicely. Others have shown similar stuff about the right.
Yes, that's true. And, when people post stuff about the right and the tea partier signs, they attribute that to the general right-of-center population.
Ian wrote:
I think we can agree that we're all talking about stuff that's said by vocal minorities, those people who actually bother to go out and attend rallies.
Absolutely, I agree with that. I never said it wasn't, actually.
Ian wrote:
Do you really want to start talking about larger trends and demographics? By that I mean, getting some polling information which shows percentages of Dems who genuinely thought Bush was a legitimate fascist, vice percentages of Republicans who honestly think Obama is a socialist (or foreign-born, or Muslim, etc.). I don't think you want to go down that road.
I don't think that's relevant either, or it would be best in another thread. I don't think you folks would like what you see if you saw some of the things people commonly thought about Bush either. My position is that people are idiots in general.
Ian wrote: I don't think you're objective at all. I think your level of understanding is nothing more than academic. You're a kid.
LOL - you are right that I am not being wholly objective here, but that's because of the fact that I am in the minority here. Most people here voice the left wing opinion. So, yes, I am taking kind of a "Devil's Advocate" role. So many people pile on me on this board, that often it feels as if I'm fighting 10 people at once.

My level of understanding is from a lifetime of experience extending back decades, and a lot of academic study as well. I'd be willing to be I have a greater knowledge here than most of the people partaking in this discussion. What I can do is think objectively enough to know that someone who holds an opinion contrary to mine can have a reasonable basis for it. Many people here arguing from the left simply state that the right is ignorant or has a false understanding of the "facts" of history, etc., and that the right has base motives - in other words, they won't credit a right-leaning opinion with being based in reason or out of a beneficent motive.

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Trolldor » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:44 pm

RuleBritannia wrote::lol: Man this thread cracks me up.

You got the right wingers with their "peaceful" protesters holding up stupid signs with laugh out fucking loud bad spelling and grammer about made up "marxist" bullshit and general whack-job conspiracies.

Then you got the left wingers with their "violent" protesters holding up their stupid signs about killing George Bush without a trial and general wasting of tax payers money by being twats so extra police have to be called.

But I think the most :funny: part of this thread is that some people hate those on the other side of the political spectrum so much that they would actually defend the actions of those on their "side", instead of just calling them all arseholes and idiots.
Politically I'm centrist, but I hate the right far more than the left. I live in the Western World, the left are University students who eventually grow up and out of mindless monologuing about the evils of the rise of Imperialistic America. The Right Wingers are just as blind, but the difference is they usually don't grow up.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:48 pm

Ian wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: And, left wingers are far more prone to use violence over the last 50 years than right leaning folks.
Unmitigated bullshit.
Concur. Maybe we should start talking about American militias, white supremacists, pro-life activists, Timothy McVeigh, etc. There's no shortage of information on how violent the right has been.
The difference is that nobody in mainstream politics defends those people....

Weather Underground, the Symbionese Liberation Army, and the Armed Forces for Puerto Rican National Liberation (FALN) (bombings and kidnappings)....Animal Liberation Front... socialist Black Blocs and others that riot and attack people and property during antiglobalization protests... Earth Liberation Front (firebombing construction sites, logging companies, car dealerships and food science labs).

Will you attribute the left wing groups to the mainstream left, too?
Of course not. And I wasn't attributing the groups I mentioned to the mainstream right. :roll:

You're convinced the left is more prone to violence.
I'm convinced that there is violence from the left, yes. In general, I don't think they are "prone" to it.
Ian wrote:
I'm absolutely convinced otherwise. I don't think either of us is going to convince the other. But... you didn't say anything to my offer to discuss the broader trends of ignorance and fear-mongering.
I did - I would love to - start a thread if you will, and we'll go for it. I have little time left today, but will get back to it.
Ian wrote:
Would you like to discuss polls which show just how many rank-and-file ordinary conservatives really think Obama is a Socialist/foreigner/muslim/etc.?
Sure would. I know it's pretty high, but it also depends on who is conducting the survey, much like those Democrats who thought Bush was behind 9/11 and that he was a Nazi because of his grandfather Prescott....
Ian wrote:
(BTW, why are you lying about your age?
It's not so much a "lie," any more than those that put 99 down as their age are "lying" - in the connotation of an intent to injury someone through deception. It's certainly not true, so it is technically a lie since I uttered it intentionally. But, it hurts nobody and I feel it is as irrelevant as my race or shoe size.
Ian wrote:
I'll admit that looking down on the opinions of a 20-yr old is a fault of mine (I value genuine experience in the world as well as academic accomplishment); but knowing that claiming to be very young might undermine your credibility (sorry Chinaski), why bother? You're obviously much older than 20, unless you remember witnessing anti-Gulf War protests when you were an infant.) :think:
As I said - I think the age is irrelevant. An argument is either good or bad, the age of the person making it doesn't change the substance.

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Chinaski » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:49 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:You know what I see in the uneducated right-wing masses? Severe levels of illiteracy, an incredibly flawed understanding of history and the wilful submission to a fabricated history. That is far more threatening than any twenty-something year old's badly-drawn placard.
And it's proved true time and time again.
I see that in the masses in general. The left wing in general holds no claim to superior knowledge than the right wing. The average IQ is about 100. Most people are stupid and uneducated, and there is plenty of misinformation and historical misunderstandings and oversimplifications from the left too.
But the fact that on average, the intellectual upper strata of society votes Democrat means nothing, does it?
Is there for honest poverty
That hangs his heid and a' that
The coward slave, we pass him by
We dare be puir for a' that.

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Re: Weird, dumbass and hypocritical political statements...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:50 pm

RuleBritannia wrote::lol: Man this thread cracks me up.

You got the right wingers with their "peaceful" protesters holding up stupid signs with laugh out fucking loud bad spelling and grammer about made up "marxist" bullshit and general whack-job conspiracies.

Then you got the left wingers with their "violent" protesters holding up their stupid signs about killing George Bush without a trial and general wasting of tax payers money by being twats so extra police have to be called.

But I think the most :funny: part of this thread is that some people hate those on the other side of the political spectrum so much that they would actually defend the actions of those on their "side", instead of just calling them all arseholes and idiots.
Oh, if I wasn't clear on that point, I'll be so now: they are all assholes and idiots - all those depicted with the signs in this thread are assholes and idiots.

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