Blind groper wrote:Seth wrote:
So, what crimes may be perpetrated against you without you being permitted to defend yourself, pray tell?
Self defense is fine, but it should be proportionate.
If a person threw a water balloon or a snowball at me, even with malice, it would not be acceptable to turn around and hit them with a length of steel.
Of course it should, and indeed legally MUST be "necessary and reasonable," but since it's impossible to predict when an attack will turn from shoving and punching to the pulling of knives or guns, it behooves people to be prepared to use lethal force in <1.5 seconds should it be necessary and lawful to do so. It's far too late to be wishing you had a gun when your assailant starts bashing your brains out with a baseball bat.
That same principle means that, if someone is attacking me with a non lethal tool, like his fist, or a club, then my defense should be sufficient to achieve the purpose of self defense, but no more.
Ever hear the term "beaten to death?" Do you even know how deadly dangerous your average bar fistfight can be? I've seen bar fights turn into a man being sliced open from his hip to his nipples with a straight razor that came out after a verbal argument. I watched this man die in agony on the dance floor of the bar with his intestines spilled all over the floor. I've worked on victims of fistfights in bars who ended up blind after their eye sockets were broken and their eyeballs ruptured. I've seen fight victims who were knocked unconscious who fell to the concrete sidewalk who suffered closed brain injuries that turned them into vegetables. I've seen a verbal altercation over a minor traffic dispute turn into a murder case because one of the drivers pulled out a tire iron and beat the other one to death with it.
Paul Kelly was a student at the University of Colorado who was walking along the sidewalk on Broadway near The Hill when he was accosted by three thugs, punched and knocked down by them and then kicked repeatedly in the head by them. He was in a coma for months and suffered permanent brain damage that turned him into an invalid. His entire personality was murdered by the kicks in the head given him by a gang of skinheads.
So fuck your idiocy, you absolutely do NOT know what the fuck you're talking about. Fists, clubs, knives, broken bottles, bar glasses, tire irons, sticks, rocks, bar stools, baseball bats, hockey sticks, boots, and just about anything else that can be used as a weapon can become a DEADLY weapon in one split second, including your car keys, and if one is not prepared to use the "necessary and reasonable" degree of force in self defense when that happens, one is going to end up dead or severely injured. I've seen it too many times to count to be persuaded by morons who don't understand anything about violent criminal attacks because they've never been victimized by a violent criminal.
Here's one from your neck of the woods.
Girl, 15, suffered brain damage after teen 'stamped on her head in savage attack outside middle school'
By Daily Mail Reporter
PUBLISHED: 12:51 EST, 6 July 2012 | UPDATED: 13:30 EST, 6 July 2012
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A trial is set to begin for a 17-year-old boy charged with ruthlessly attacking a teenage girl more than two years ago outside a middle school.
Wayne Treacy, who was 15 at the time of the assault, is accused of brutally kicking and stomping the head of then 15-year-old Josie Lou Ratley so badly that she suffered permanent brain injuries.
But Treacy says he was insane when he assaulted the girl and should be acquitted of attempted first-degree murder as his trial starts on Monday.
'Difficult':Treacy is accused of ruthlessly attacking Josie Lou Ratley at a middle school two years ago when they were both 15
Horrific: Witnesses say Treacy grabbed Ms Ratley (pictured) by the neck, knocked her to the ground and began stomping and kicking her
Horror: Wayne Treacy (left), now 17, was 15-years-old when police say he brutally kicked and stomped the head of then 15-year-old Josie Lou Ratley (right) so badly that she suffered permanent brain injuries
If convicted, Treacy could get 50 years in prison. If not, he likely would still spend years in a state mental institution, possibly even as long as he would spend in prison, attorneys and legal experts say.
'They often have a difficult time getting out,' said attorney Richard Rosenbaum, who has represented defendants claiming the insanity defense and is not involved in the Treacy case.
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He said few insanity defenses succeed because defendants not only must show a mental illness or defect but also must prove they didn't know right from wrong.
'That's usually the prong that trips up most of the people who raise insanity as a defense,' Rosenbaum said. 'It's fairly easy for the state to show someone knew right from wrong. They knew "Thou shalt not kill."'
Strategy: At his trial set to begin on Monday, Treacy will say he was insane when he assaulted the girl and should be acquitted of attempted first-degree murder
Strategy: At his trial set to begin on Monday, Treacy will say he was insane when he assaulted the girl and should be acquitted of attempted first-degree murder
Treacy's defense claims he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, rooted in his older brother's recent suicide, when he became enraged on March 17, 2010, by an exchange of text messages with Ms Ratley, whom he did not know.
In one of the texts, Ms Ratley tells Treacy 'now go visit your dead brother,' leading Treacy to respond, 'You're (expletive) dead! I swear to God, I'm going to kill you. Your (expletive) is cold, dead meat.'
Yet Treacy threatened Ms Ratley several times during their 45-minute text exchange before she mentioned the brother. The whole thing started because Treacy was trying to get in touch with another girl, Kayla Manson, whom he had been dating. Ms Ratley sometimes let Manson use her phone to contact Treacy.
Ms Ratley repeatedly referred to then-15-year-old Treacy as a 'rapist' for dating Manson, who was then 13. Eventually Treacy texts back, 'Why are you trying to get yourself killed? I will find you. I will mess you up, you will regret crossing me.'
Tragedy: After Treacy assaulted Ms Ratley, she was left lying unconscious in a pool of blood and still has mental problems after she gradually recovered
Tragedy: After Treacy assaulted Ms Ratley, she was left lying unconscious in a pool of blood and still has mental problems after she gradually recovered
And, prosecutors say, Treacy calmly laid plans to do just that over the next few hours. Evidence shows that Treacy - a gifted student who did not attend his high school that day - did computer searches on ways to efficiently kill people barehanded, wrote up a short will and hinted to several friends about his violent plans.
'I'm going to jail for murder,' Treacy said in one text to a friend, according to investigative records.
Most of the friends said they didn't take the threats seriously.
'He's never hurt anyone before and I wouldn't think he would ever hurt someone,' said Monica Montero, who received several texts from Treacy that day.
'Mission': Prosecutors say Treacy dressed in black, including martial arts fighting gloves and his brother's steel-toed boots to ensure maximum damage, before he beat Ms Ratley at a bus stop
'Mission': Prosecutors say Treacy dressed in black, including martial arts fighting gloves and his brother's steel-toed boots to ensure maximum damage, before he beat Ms Ratley at a bus stop
Prosecutors say Treacy dressed in black, including martial arts fighting gloves and his brother's steel-toed boots to ensure maximum damage. He then rode his bicycle to the middle school and found Manson, asking her to take him to Ms Ratley. Surveillance video shows Manson leading the much taller Treacy through a crowd of students at the school bus stop, a few moments after Ratley also passed by. The beating itself is not captured on camera.
Numerous witnesses say Treacy grabbed Ms Ratley by the neck, knocked her to the ground and began stomping and kicking her. A teacher managed to knock Treacy away from the girl, who was by then lying unconscious in a pool of blood.
The teacher, Walter Welsh, then hustled Treacy into the school office and waited for police and paramedics to respond.
Welsh said it was clear immediately the attack was planned. 'He was on a mission,' Welsh said.
'I'm going to kill you': The boy's defence claims Treacy (bottom right) was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder following his older brother's recent suicide when he attacked Ms Ratley
'I'm going to kill you': The boy's defence claims Treacy (bottom right) was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder following his older brother's recent suicide when he attacked Ms Ratley
Later in a videotaped police interview, Treacy claimed he blacked out during the attack and that he never intended to hit Ms Ratley. Just before the investigator came into the interview room, however, Treacy quietly says, 'I'm a monster. I'm a monster.'
Ms Ratley gradually recovered but still has mental problems that prosecutors say may prevent her from testifying.
Manson, the girl who pointed Ms Ratley out, faces an August trial on charges of being Treacy's accomplice.
For Treacy's insanity defense to succeed, experts say it's crucial that jurors are convinced he had been suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder for some time after his brother's suicide.
In pretrial hearings, a defense expert has testified Treacy likely was in period of detachment during which he didn't know what he was doing. Those periods can last for hours or days, the expert said.
'Would never have happened': Although Treacy told police he blacked out during the attack and that he never intended to hit Ms Ratley, he earlier said quietly to himself, 'I'm a monster'
'Would never have happened': Although Treacy told police he blacked out during the attack and that he never intended to hit Ms Ratley, he earlier said quietly to himself, 'I'm a monster'
In a taped jailhouse phone call with his mother, Treacy says he is angry at his brother because the suicide messed up his head.
'If it wasn't for (unclear), I'd be just as normal as I ever was and this would never have happened,' Treacy says, according to a transcript.
The prosecution's job is easier, said Nova Southeastern University law professor Robert Jarvis.
'The state has to keep reminding the jury that the defendant is (an attempted) killer,' he said. 'In the end, I think the defense fails in this case because lots of people lose a loved one and still function without engaging in a crime and jurors know that.'
Coincidentally, the attack on Ms Ratley happened several months after a group of students at the same school, Deerfield Beach Middle School, set a classmate on fire, nearly killing him. Three boys have been convicted of felonies in that case.
Here in NZ, which is a nation with sane self defense laws, you will be charged and very likely sent to prison for using excess force, such as a gun.
That's because NZ is stuffed to the gills with fuckwits and idiots who don't understand a thing about violent crime or the vulnerability of the human body.
Seth wrote:No, it just shows the idiocy of your reasoning.
That kind of bland statement is meaningless. If you think my reasoning is faulty, you need to explain why, or else we will regard your statement as having no merit.
Your reasoning's faulty because you clearly have never been beaten unconscious by some thug, and you've never had a family member beaten senseless who suffered a permanent and debilitating brain injury in a bar fight, and you've never had anyone smash your skull and spill your brains out on the ground with a "club."
Your complete lack of experience with criminal violence and just how easy it is to inflict a fatal or "serious" bodily injury with nothing more than fists and feet is what makes your blathering about what legitimate self-defense is utter idiocy.
I do know about the effects of violence on the human body. I've worked in law enforcement and emergency services, including in a hospital ER for more than 30 years, and I've seen the carnage, death and permanent injury and disfigurement that occurs when someone gets "beat up" by someone else. I'm perfectly aware that any time someone launches a criminal attack against me, my life and health are in jeopardy. Since I cannot predict which assailant will pull a knife or knock me down and kick me in the head, I don't allow people to attack me. If they try, I stop them, using the proper level of reasonable and necessary force, up to and including the use of deadly physical force if it becomes necessary to do so. If you come at me with a broken bottle or a knife closer than 15 feet I will shoot you immediately without a second's hesitation. If you're further than 15 feet away, you have about one second to drop it and stop your attack before I will shoot you dead. And I'll be perfectly justified in doing exactly that, since you can easily kill or permanently injury me in the following three seconds if I don't shoot you dead.
Idiots who have never been the victim of a violent crime and who do not understand the dangers involved should not bloviate regarding what other people should or should not do by way of defending themselves.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
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