You guys and your guns...

[JimC]

I was wondering when the patented CES tactic for derailing any criticism of the US would be deployed. Generally speaking, the people in this thread with the most blasé attitude to the death of foreign civilians are the Americans in the thread, so don't whine if you get a bit of flak for it. Here's an idea, if you don't want to get shot by a child in country X, don't invade country X. I doubt the blighter will turn up on your doorstep.

A Brit, scolding Americans for invading foreign countries. Now THAT is fucking rich.

Well, it is a habit they've managed to give up in recent years (unless when they are tempted to join in by you lot...)

"Given up" my ass, British Imperialism didn't end one day because they up and decided it wasn't nice taking over all those places with funny talking people. If they could still play that game, they would.

Well sure, it was in part a forced move, but it was a reasonable graceful exit from imperialism as these things go...

[Blind groper]

If the Australian government was loudly proclaiming how wonderful the bombing was, and providing material support and training for future bombers, I'd say yes!

I doubt that was quite the situation. Certainly the Taliban provided a refuge for Al Qaeda. But not much more. Al Qaeda was the real enemy.

The other thing the USA could have done, of course, was go down the road of diplomacy. The Taliban must have been aware of the military aid provided by the US during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. That should have provided a lever to improve relations, and persuade the Taliban to remove any aid to Al Qaeda.

My own view is that the invasion of Afghanistan, which began only about a month after 9/11 was simply Dubya's way of telling the American people that he was a strong president who should be re-elected. Who cares how many people die, if he can get his second term.

[Warren Dew]

I was wondering when the patented CES tactic for derailing any criticism of the US would be deployed. Generally speaking, the people in this thread with the most blasé attitude to the death of foreign civilians are the Americans in the thread, so don't whine if you get a bit of flak for it.

Valid criticism.

Here's an idea, if you don't want to get shot by a child in country X, don't invade country X. I doubt the blighter will turn up on your doorstep.

The problem with that reasoning is that the blighters did turn up on our doorstep, killing 3000 people in one go.

Okay, two goes.

[JimC]

The first intervention against Afghanistan was totally justified, IMO, and there is also an international group involved. Also the first Gulf war...

Agreed on Bush's first year or two in Afghanistan. We should have pulled out after that.

The Gulf War was a classic instance of the U.S. getting involved in things that weren't our business, an interventionist attitude that inevitably led to the inhuman sanctions of the 1990s and the Iraq War.

The Gulf War may have had its share of murky Realpolitik, but it involved a genuine international coalition, and had a great deal more justification than the Iraq war...

[Blind groper]

The Gulf War may have had its share of murky Realpolitik, but it involved a genuine international coalition, and had a great deal more justification than the Iraq war...

I agree with that. One of the few good justifications for going to war is if an ally is invaded and asks for help.

[Seth]

The Gulf War may have had its share of murky Realpolitik, but it involved a genuine international coalition, and had a great deal more justification than the Iraq war...

I agree with that. One of the few good justifications for going to war is if an ally is invaded and asks for help.

Another good justification for resuming hostilities is the failure of one of the belligerents to abide by the provisions of the cease fire and mandated UN inspections.

[Blind groper]

Another good justification for resuming hostilities is the failure of one of the belligerents to abide by the provisions of the cease fire and mandated UN inspections.

Only if it is a mandate from the United Nations. Unilateral action is too likely to be motivated by the interests of the belligerent party.

[Warren Dew]

The Gulf War may have had its share of murky Realpolitik, but it involved a genuine international coalition, and had a great deal more justification than the Iraq war...

I agree with that. One of the few good justifications for going to war is if an ally is invaded and asks for help.

No ally was invaded in the Gulf War.

[Gallstones]

MM, you will never understand.

I understand what death means. It's just as devastating for foreign people, as it is for New Yorkers.

I find an amazing double standard in most people. 911 was a terrible tragedy.
The invasion of Iraq was more like a ball game. Very little thought or concern given to the innocent people killed.

And nobody mentions all the people the vets have killed. Soldiers kill and get killed.
When they come home, people completely wipe the first bit from their minds, as if it just doesn't exist.

It's welcome home heroes, not welcome home killers.

Not the welcome the Viet Nam vets received.

The same was true in Oz, but I think it's not true (in both our countries) for more recent conflicts...

Correct, the pendulum swung. But it took ten years to get started in the other direction.
And I am not ungrateful to benefit from the new attitude towards military and veterans.

[Gallstones]

A Brit, scolding Americans for invading foreign countries. Now THAT is fucking rich.

Am I permitted to scold the USA? After all, NZ never invaded anyone.

To Gawdzilla

I do not think the Falklands count. They were inhabited by British people, and the Argentine invasion was countered only by a defense of the Falklands themselves. Argentine claims on the "Malvinas" are decidely shaky when you look at the history.

The Maori?

[Svartalf]

Jim, I think most of our more right wing Merkin members already occupy the position that every American war was a just war.

90% of my family is right wing and none of them think Iraq was a just war, and they all agree that still being in Afghanistan is pretty fucking stupid. I've never asked them about previous wars, as we don't talk about politics etc. all that much.

Are they members of this forum?

No way! They are mostly very religious god fearing farmers and a couple chiropractors.
And I know you said most of our members, but I am sick of people generalizing Americans and acting like we are all red-necks with no type of education or brain function.

U haz brain function?
I thunked u wer just pretty buncha flowrz

[JimC]

A Brit, scolding Americans for invading foreign countries. Now THAT is fucking rich.

Am I permitted to scold the USA? After all, NZ never invaded anyone.

To Gawdzilla

I do not think the Falklands count. They were inhabited by British people, and the Argentine invasion was countered only by a defense of the Falklands themselves. Argentine claims on the "Malvinas" are decidely shaky when you look at the history.

The Maori?

And the NZ Division did a pretty fair job in invading poor little Italy...

[JimC]

The Gulf War may have had its share of murky Realpolitik, but it involved a genuine international coalition, and had a great deal more justification than the Iraq war...

I agree with that. One of the few good justifications for going to war is if an ally is invaded and asks for help.

No ally was invaded in the Gulf War.

Perhaps not technically, but a UN member in good standing was invaded, appealed for help, and the war to redress the problem was clearly sanctioned by a solid quorum of the international community. I give the US and its allies a tick on this one - isolationism is not always the answer.

[Blind groper]

In case you had not noticed, the Maori are a part of NZ. So invading the Maori would be NZ invading itself. A little difficult.

As for poor little Italy, I know a little about it, since my father was one of those doing the invading. He told me that they were greeted with joy everywhere they went, and the Italian soldiers would quite often round up the remaining Germans and deliver them to the NZ troops. The Italian women would press flowers into the hands of the NZ soldiers, and kisses on their cheeks (and more, when no one was looking.)

Which brings me to an irrelevant aside (forgive me).
The Italians in WWII were often the subjects of a calumny, accusing them of cowardice and being lousy soldiers. My dear old Dad knew them well. He and a few mates rounded up literally hundreds of them as prisoners in the North African desert. My father had a very soft spot for those Italian soldiers, who were delighted to be POW's, and cooperated wonderfully with their captors, even to the extent of working harder than they had to, in order to assist the allies building fortifications and the like against the troops of Rommel.

The thing is that the Italian soldiers were not cowards, or even reluctant to fight. What they were, was reluctant to fight for Mussolini or Hitler. They knew damn well that their war was the wrong side, and the NZ soldiers were on the right side. They wanted, more than anything else, to regain an Italy free of Mussolini and German troops. They helped the NZ forces as best they could to achieve that goal.

[JimC]

In case you had not noticed, the Maori are a part of NZ. So invading the Maori would be NZ invading itself. A little difficult.

As for poor little Italy, I know a little about it, since my father was one of those doing the invading. He told me that they were greeted with joy everywhere they went, and the Italian soldiers would quite often round up the remaining Germans and deliver them to the NZ troops. The Italian women would press flowers into the hands of the NZ soldiers, and kisses on their cheeks (and more, when no one was looking.)

Which brings me to an irrelevant aside (forgive me).
The Italians in WWII were often the subjects of a calumny, accusing them of cowardice and being lousy soldiers. My dear old Dad knew them well. He and a few mates rounded up literally hundreds of them as prisoners in the North African desert. My father had a very soft spot for those Italian soldiers, who were delighted to be POW's, and cooperated wonderfully with their captors, even to the extent of working harder than they had to, in order to assist the allies building fortifications and the like against the troops of Rommel.

The thing is that the Italian soldiers were not cowards, or even reluctant to fight. What they were, was reluctant to fight for Mussolini or Hitler. They knew damn well that their war was the wrong side, and the NZ soldiers were on the right side. They wanted, more than anything else, to regain an Italy free of Mussolini and German troops. They helped the NZ forces as best they could to achieve that goal.

I have read similar stories from people involved in the desert war...

My father was in Palestine at the time, as the Battery Sergeant Major of heavy artillery, surveying gun positions for an attack from the north that never came. He then was shipped back to Australia, narrowly avoiding being diverted to Singapore (which may have meant JimC never existing) to spend the rest of the war in a training capacity in Queensland...