Guns used for lawful self defense

[Seth]

Seth

You have a seriously jaundiced and distorted view of things.
You probability assessments are affected by your paranoia. Here in NZ, police pulling up traffic offenders are rarely at risk. I am aware that the media give the opposite impression, but anyone believing the media is an idiot.

For myself personally, I know that the odds against me ever suffering a serious physical assault are low. Not zero, but not high enough to get all paranoid about. Certainly, I have never carried a weapon and never will. Nor is such a weapon needed, except by those who are terminally neurotic.

That's fine by me. You get to assess your risks and make your defense decisions. So do I. But neither you, nor anyone else, including the government, get to make those decisions for me.

[Blind groper]

. But neither you, nor anyone else, including the government, get to make those decisions for me.

I certainly make no decisions for you. However, your government already makes large numbers of decisions for you. That is what laws are for, and the police are there to make sure you toe the line.

[Seth]

I walk about fearlessly because I'm armed and I know I'm prepared to respond to ANY emergency quickly and effectively. I don't have to worry whether some beer-soaked thug is going to try to steal my wallet when I'm walking home from the pub late at night precisely because I know I can deal with any such eventuality. I don't worry about driving through a bad part of town because I'm armed, and can take care of business if called upon to do so. You may trust your fellow citizens, and you may be justified in doing so in main, but the one time you're wrong, it will be your last mistake. The one time I'm wrong in assessing the character of my fellow citizens, it will be the last mistake THEY make.

You appear to be absolutely convinced of your own invincibility here, but no matter how well armed you are, you can still end up dead, just like anyone else.

Yup, sometimes you die. I've never claimed invincibility, but the warrior spirit and the mental preparation needed to effectively use a handgun for self defense requires that I presume I'm going to win the gunfight. If I enter a gunfight with the presumption that I'm going to lose, I will lose. My obligation is to be prepared to use deadly force quickly and effectively if called upon and given legal authority to do so, and a huge part of that preparation is mental preparation and resolve.

Soldiers routinely do in combat and they are armed to the teeth.

Yup, but they go INTO combat with a positive mental attitude about their ability to avoid death and deal it out to the enemy. Otherwise no soldier would ever volunteer to go to war.

So in spite of your assertion that you can deal with any eventuality, in reality, this is not so.

Well, you don't know whether it's so or not. Neither do I. But I'll take my chances, based on my extensive training in armed self defense, that I'm a better, faster, more accurate shot than some teenage thug who thinks holding his gun sideways is "cool." Sure, I might die, but I'll die with bullets entering my chest while sending my rounds at my enemy, or with my teeth in his throat if necessary, not on my knees with a bullet in the back of my head as I piss and shit myself in fear like you will.

But what compels you to be armed every time you leave the house anyway? Is it just your belief in upholding your constitutional rights or have you ever had to defend yourself?

Yes, and yes. It's both, and more. I have a duty to defend my family, my friends, and my community against violent criminals. I took an oath a long time ago to do so and have never been released from that oath. I choose to carry a gun because I'm well qualified to use it at need effectively to save innocent lives and it's my obligation as a citizen of the community to do what I can when I can to defend it against violent criminals. As Sir Robert Peel said in number seven of his Nine Principles of Policing, "Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. (Emphasis added)

And every time I might start to think I really don't need to carry my gun every day, some fuckwad shoots up a high school, or a shopping mall, or a movie theater, all of which absolutely vindicate my decision to do so. Have I ever been in the right place at the right time? Nope, unfortunately I have not. I spent some sleepless nights after Columbine thinking about what I would have done if I'd been in the school with my handgun when the killers started shooting, and I sincerely wish I HAD been there, or in the movie theater, because I'm prepared and qualified to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING other than just cower there waiting for someone to shoot me, and I'm willing to risk my life using my gun to safe the lives of others.

And if so, was it absolutely neccesary to do so with a firearm?

Absolutely necessary? Who knows? Who cares? All I know is that when presented with a violent criminal threat, I drew and displayed my firearm and told the perp to fuck off somewhere else or I'd shoot him, and he fucked off somewhere else each and every time without me having to fire a single shot. Why use a less effective deterrent than one which is decisive and which can be totally effective if the attacker does not fuck off somewhere else right away and continues the attack?

The handgun is the single best, most effective and most flexible defensive tool there is because it can be used to either deter crime without causing ANY harm, or defend against crime by dispensing lethal force if necessary, all in the same split-second.

[Seth]

. But neither you, nor anyone else, including the government, get to make those decisions for me.

I certainly make no decisions for you. However, your government already makes large numbers of decisions for you. That is what laws are for, and the police are there to make sure you toe the line.

No it doesn't, it just thinks it does, and I toe the line when the police are around so that they won't bother me when I cross it, which I do all the time when faced with immoral, unconstitutional and unjust laws which are, as the Supreme Court has said, "no laws at all."

[Seth]

1. what compels you to be armed every time you leave the house anyway?
2. Is it just your belief in upholding your constitutional rights
3. or have you ever had to defend yourself?
4. And if so, was it absolutely neccesary to do so with a firearm?

Answers.

1. Insanity.
2. Not a belief. just a convenient rationalisation.
3. and 4. No and no. However, Seth will answer yes to both, and we have no way of knowing if he is telling the truth or experiencing a perceived truth invented by a feverish imagination.

And your opinion is not worth the turd I shat out ten minutes ago. You see, I'm the one carrying the gun, and you're not. All you can do is whinge about it, but I'm still armed every day and you can't be, even if you want or need to be armed, because you grovel in the muck before your masters and suck their cocks and lick the shit from their asses at their command because you have no other choice and no balls to make a choice even if you could.

[Blind groper]

The handgun is the single best, most effective and most flexible defensive tool there is because it can be used to either deter crime without causing ANY harm, or defend against crime by dispensing lethal force if necessary, all in the same split-second.

The hand gun is the single best, most effective, and most flexible tool for ensuring that vast numbers of innocent people are murdered each year , and to massively increase the number of gun crimes in the USA. That is the reason why the USA, out of 20 odd advanced western nations, is by far the one with the greatest homicide rate. 8,000 hand gun homicides, with an additional 12,000 hand gun suicides each year. That is a triumph for utter stupidity!

Seth is one of those people who goes through life with a haze of self delusion over his eyes 24/7. Hand guns are designed to kill people, which is why they are used preferentially for murder when they are available. They are the ideal tool for close range murder. They are small enough to hide on your person, and not too inconvenient to carry if you are an asshole criminal. Those who think those murder tools are a net benefit cannot read statistics.

Lovers of guns, and especially hand guns, are seduced by the feeling of power they convey. In other words, those gun lovers are psychologically inadequate and insecure people, who are so neurotic, they have to reach out for their hand gun security blanket. Well balanced people do not need those artificial aids to a false feeling of adequacy.

You can see the fantasy element in Seth's posts, when he talks of wanting to be at the site of the Columbine massacre with his hand gun. The neurotic wanker element is obvious. If he ever did have the misfortune to end up in such a situation, the probability is that he would simply become one more victim.

[Tyrannical]

The hand gun is the single best, most effective, and most flexible tool for ensuring that vast numbers of innocent people are murdered each year , and to massively increase the number of gun crimes in the USA. That is the reason why the USA, out of 20 odd advanced western nations, is by far the one with the greatest homicide rate. 8,000 hand gun homicides, with an additional 12,000 hand gun suicides each year. That is a triumph for utter stupidity!

It's not the guns that give the US such a high murder rate, it is our large criminally inclined Black population. Remove Blacks and Hispanics from the equation and you'll find that our homicide rate is not all that high.

[JimC]

The hand gun is the single best, most effective, and most flexible tool for ensuring that vast numbers of innocent people are murdered each year , and to massively increase the number of gun crimes in the USA. That is the reason why the USA, out of 20 odd advanced western nations, is by far the one with the greatest homicide rate. 8,000 hand gun homicides, with an additional 12,000 hand gun suicides each year. That is a triumph for utter stupidity!

It's not the guns that give the US such a high murder rate, it is our large criminally inclined Black population. Remove Blacks and Hispanics from the equation and you'll find that our homicide rate is not all that high.

Predictable racist slant, as always...

Even accepting your premise, in a society with far fewer guns, any given segment will engage in less killing...

[MrJonno]

You can see the fantasy element in Seth's posts, when he talks of wanting to be at the site of the Columbine massacre with his hand gun. The neurotic wanker element is obvious. If he ever did have the misfortune to end up in such a situation, the probability is that he would simply become one more victim

Missing the main point is there was someone armed like Seth at Columbine, in Norway and in the other countless mass murders by psychopaths. These are the people who commit mass murder not those who prevent it

[Seth]

You can see the fantasy element in Seth's posts, when he talks of wanting to be at the site of the Columbine massacre with his hand gun. The neurotic wanker element is obvious. If he ever did have the misfortune to end up in such a situation, the probability is that he would simply become one more victim

Missing the main point is there was someone armed like Seth at Columbine, in Norway and in the other countless mass murders by psychopaths. These are the people who commit mass murder not those who prevent it

You really are a fuckwit you know.

[Seth]

The handgun is the single best, most effective and most flexible defensive tool there is because it can be used to either deter crime without causing ANY harm, or defend against crime by dispensing lethal force if necessary, all in the same split-second.

The hand gun is the single best, most effective, and most flexible tool for ensuring that vast numbers of innocent people are murdered each year , and to massively increase the number of gun crimes in the USA.

Again, for the twentieth time, handguns are ALSO used, and indeed used far more often for lawful self defense in the US than they are to commit murder. This is a fact that you are simply unwilling, or unable to acknowledge.

That is the reason why the USA, out of 20 odd advanced western nations, is by far the one with the greatest homicide rate. 8,000 hand gun homicides, with an additional 12,000 hand gun suicides each year. That is a triumph for utter stupidity!

Seth is one of those people who goes through life with a haze of self delusion over his eyes 24/7. Hand guns are designed to kill people, which is why they are used preferentially for murder when they are available. They are the ideal tool for close range murder. They are small enough to hide on your person, and not too inconvenient to carry if you are an asshole criminal. Those who think those murder tools are a net benefit cannot read statistics.

And that's precisely why they are effective tools of lawful self defense.

Lovers of guns, and especially hand guns, are seduced by the feeling of power they convey. In other words, those gun lovers are psychologically inadequate and insecure people, who are so neurotic, they have to reach out for their hand gun security blanket. Well balanced people do not need those artificial aids to a false feeling of adequacy.

Meh.

You can see the fantasy element in Seth's posts, when he talks of wanting to be at the site of the Columbine massacre with his hand gun. The neurotic wanker element is obvious. If he ever did have the misfortune to end up in such a situation, the probability is that he would simply become one more victim.

No, I said I regret that I was not there, because we had teachers using fire extinguishers as self defense weapons rather than teachers with shotguns and handguns who could actually defend the students at Columbine. One civilian with a handgun might have saved lives at any of the mass shootings like Columbine. A shopping mall shooter was pinned down and prevented from killing more people by an off-duty armed police officer quite effectively. I'd do the same thing if it happened to me. So would many other armed citizens.

It's you that can't separate fantasy from reality. You think the world is run by Care Bears and unicorns and that bad shit doesn't happen to good people suddenly and without warning and that nobody but the police are competent to engage in armed self defense. As many as two million people per year here in the US who legally and effectively use their firearms for self defense, mostly without ever firing them, disagree with you and know just how ignorant your argument actually is.

[Rum]

You can see the fantasy element in Seth's posts, when he talks of wanting to be at the site of the Columbine massacre with his hand gun. The neurotic wanker element is obvious. If he ever did have the misfortune to end up in such a situation, the probability is that he would simply become one more victim

Missing the main point is there was someone armed like Seth at Columbine, in Norway and in the other countless mass murders by psychopaths. These are the people who commit mass murder not those who prevent it

You really are a fuckwit you know.

Seth, this is a reminder for the above post. Please heed our Play Nice and related rules. Thank you and enjoy.

[Tyrannical]

The hand gun is the single best, most effective, and most flexible tool for ensuring that vast numbers of innocent people are murdered each year , and to massively increase the number of gun crimes in the USA. That is the reason why the USA, out of 20 odd advanced western nations, is by far the one with the greatest homicide rate. 8,000 hand gun homicides, with an additional 12,000 hand gun suicides each year. That is a triumph for utter stupidity!

It's not the guns that give the US such a high murder rate, it is our large criminally inclined Black population. Remove Blacks and Hispanics from the equation and you'll find that our homicide rate is not all that high.

Predictable racist slant, as always...

Even accepting your premise, in a society with far fewer guns, any given segment will engage in less killing...

South Africa is near the top of the murder per capita list, and I don't think many of them are gun related.

Guns make killing easier, but guns also make it possible for the weak or frail to defend themselves.

[Blind groper]

It's you that can't separate fantasy from reality. You think the world is run by Care Bears and unicorns and that bad shit doesn't happen to good people suddenly and without warning and that nobody but the police are competent to engage in armed self defense.

No, Seth.

Let me take you back my earliest posts. There is just one country on this planet with the sad and deluded belief that carrying tools for murder is a human right. It is also the only country among the 20 odd advanced western nations with widespread availability of hand guns. Of those advanced nations, it is the only one with a third world level of homicide.

The world is not run by care bears, and letting all and sundry have hand guns does not reduce gun crime. It increases gun crime and increases homicides and increases suicides.

Bad shit can, indeed, happen to good people suddenly and without warning, and the police are definitely not always able to cope with it. That bad shit happens far more often when the government and people are idiotic enough to allow murder tools in widespread possession. I mean specifically hand guns. American statistics show this to be true.

[macdoc]