Romney

[Blind groper]

That's obviously an awful lot to retype, and I'm not going to do so.

I am not asking you to retype it all. Just the salient queries you think I have not addressed. Make it just one or two for a start, to make it easy on you.

I am not going to retrace this thread and comment on everything. If you think I have failed to respond, then you must be specific, not evasive.

[Svartalf]

Grouper... you forget that some countries where firearms are illegal have a higher homicide and violent crime rate than the US, because if you can't get to a certain tool, you'll use what you have access to.

I, for one, would rather pay the price so honest citizens can have access to the means of defending themselves from those who would hurt them (some of whom having guns in the first place because they disregard the law anyway)
Then again, I don't live in a courteous country, and the police is NOT protecting me... Our police is made up of despicable creatures, and we don't have enough of them in the first place, and they are busy doing things that ramp up their statistics the right way instead of curbing serious crime.

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's obviously an awful lot to retype, and I'm not going to do so.

I am not asking you to retype it all. Just the salient queries you think I have not addressed. Make it just one or two for a start, to make it easy on you.

I am not going to retrace this thread and comment on everything. If you think I have failed to respond, then you must be specific, not evasive.

I haven't evaded anything. I raised my specific objections in those posts the first time, assuming that you would read what I wrote. If you cannot be bothered to read my points the first time around, why should I believe this request of yours to be earnest?

If you really wish to read my objections -- specific objections -- then read those links. Your refusal to do so will be interpreted here as insincerity on your part.

I am not going to repeat myself.

[Blind groper]

Svartalf

Homicide rates in the USA are the highest, by a large margin, compared to other advanced western nations. If you want to compare US homicides to Honduras, Afghanistan, and Columbia, and Russia - then sure. They are not too high.

However, comparing apples with apples - France has a homicide rate of 1.04 killings per 100,000 people per year, compared to 4.8 for the USA. France is way, way better than America in terms of murders.

[Blind groper]

If you really wish to read my objections -- specific objections -- then read those links. Your refusal to do so will be interpreted here as insincerity on your part.

I am not going to repeat myself.

You do not need to.

However, I am not going to go through every damn point you have made.
If you do not want to ask questions, then you do not have to. Nor do I have to answer unstated queries. I have answered what I thought important through this thread. If I missed something you consider important, that is your business to ask again. I do not respond to vague and unstated complaints. If it is vital to you, then you can ask.

[Svartalf]

Svartalf

Homicide rates in the USA are the highest, by a large margin, compared to other advanced western nations. If you want to compare US homicides to Honduras, Afghanistan, and Columbia, and Russia - then sure. They are not too high.

However, comparing apples with apples - France has a homicide rate of 1.04 killings per 100,000 people per year, compared to 4.8 for the USA. France is way, way better than America in terms of murders.

Oh, sure... we're not that bad off... I still would rather have certain freedoms, even at the expectable cost.

But while firearms crimes are very low in France and the UK, sharp and blunt instruments take up a large part of the slack.

[Thumpalumpacus]

However, I am not going to go through every damn point you have made.

Then why did you draw out this conversation? Why should you have fair play to wave away those objections simply because I won't repeat them for your convenience? They're lengthy and substantive.

If you do not want to ask questions, then you do not have to.

Ah, but that's not the issue. The issue is, you haven't addressed my points. I've put them to you. Why should I have to state them twice, when you haven't addressed them once?

Nor do I have to answer unstated queries. I have answered what I thought important through this thread.

My points weren't "unstated". The fact that you considered them unimportant speaks only to your valuation ... not to the actual merit of the points I've raised.

If I missed something you consider important, that is your business to ask again.

Nah. I can also interpret it as you simply being unable to answer the point, and therefore trying to elide it with misplaced indignation. It's much easier on this end, and that comports with your behavior much closer, quite frankly.

I do not respond to vague and unstated complaints.

Except that my points were stated ... and yet still you chose to ignore them. Perhaps because they undermine your cherished assumptions? Sounds good to me.

If it is vital to you, then you can ask.

If you're so complacent about your views you refuse to question them for yourself -- as is obviously the case here -- why should I go out of my way to present them yet again? If you're really open-minded, you'll read what I've written. If you're not, you won't.

Either way, I've done my share of the lifting for this conversation, as I'm sure the astute reader will see. You have a good'un, now.

[Blind groper]

Thumpa

With the greatest of respect, I am still waiting to hear what your specific enquiries are.
During the course of our discussion, much has been said. Most is pretty vague.
If you have specific queries, then ask them. Please be very specific. I am not trying to evade your queries. I just need to know, very specifically, what you want to ask.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm not sure what part of "I'm not going to repeat myself" you don't get, but I'm not going to repeat myself. I was kind enough to go through the thread and collate the pertinent posts. You can read, or not, as you see fit.

But I'm not going to repeat myself.

[Coito ergo sum]

hectoring someone else about their native land isn't really polite, especially when your own knowledge is so sketchy. Sorry to put it so plainly, but it didn't seem to be landing, my point.

Thumpa

I make no apologies.

It has been said that anyone entering politics lays him/herself open to public criticism, by the nature of the job, and by virtue of the fact that they intend to interfere in everyone else's lives. As a result, they should not complain if everyone else criticises them.

On the world stage, the United States is that person. Since World War II, the administration of the US has shamelessly interfered in the national sovereignty of many other countries, even to the extend of military invasion. Like the would-be politician, America has laid itself wide open to international criticism, and should not complain when that criticism arrives. If American hates that, then America should stay out of other countries business.

I for one, don't mind the criticism. I object to the nearsighted and hypocritical focus on the US, to the exclusion of other countries who have also, since and prior to World War 2, shamelessly interfered with the national sovereignties of many other countries, even to the extent of military invasion.

There is an ignorance that people from Europe and Aussie/NZ have -- they don't see the shit in their own backyard, and they not only criticize the US, but make stuff up out of some perception of the US that bears little resemblance to reality. Then they claim superior education and intelligence, and superior moral compasses, to the US and to Americans.

That's why folks will say "Oh, I'm hard on New Zealand [or insert other enlightened country] too" - but, we don't see them start any threads about them.

[Coito ergo sum]

Thumpa

Feel free to express your opinion. I do not mind.

Let me put it another way.
If a person tries to attain a position of leadership in society, he or she becomes a target. Subject to criticism.
The United States has set out to be a 'world leader'. Sometimes doing well, and sometimes stuffing things up so badly that the world would be a lot better off without this so-called 'leadership'.

In striving to attain this leadership position, the US becomes subject to criticism. I do not hesitate to supply that. If you, or others in the US, do not enjoy that criticism, then tell your leaders to pull their heads in. Criticism comes to everyone who tries to set themselves up as leaders.

All countries are rightfully subject to criticism. I don't see what the problem is there.

Often, the criticisms are not justified, though. And, quite often, the criticisms are hypocritical. It's like someone from most countries outside the US lambasting the US for suggesting that a police officer ought to be able to ask for citizenship verification when there has been a criminal stop or arrest. Almost every, if not every, other country in Europe and Aussie/NZ authorizes their police to check citizenship in those circumstances, and most allow police to check your citizenship anytime they darn well please. Let the US propose such a thing, and non-Americans are lambasting the US for it.

That's the kind of thing that goes on, and it is incessant and never-ending.

Then add to that that the constant harangue about how much everything sucks in the US. The food sucks. The people are stupid and fat. We're all gun nuts and it'
s like the O.K. Corral here in the US, especially in the south and the west, where doctors and lawyers travel to work with side-arms and spurs a-jinglin-janglin. We let people die in the streets here. Nobody cares about anybody, and we can't make anything but fast food, pissy beer, bad mustard, mild curries, and thin french fries. One argument went on for days about how there is no such thing as good bread in the US. Bread. We don't have bread, except white bread of the "Wonder Bread" variety in the US.

We kill each other more with guns, the statistics prove that conclusively. But, the fact that we're less violent in general, supported by stats too, that's not persuasive because it "can't" be true, apparently.

[Coito ergo sum]

Svartalf

Homicide rates in the USA are the highest, by a large margin, compared to other advanced western nations. If you want to compare US homicides to Honduras, Afghanistan, and Columbia, and Russia - then sure. They are not too high.

Homicide rates? False. That is not true. We're about equal to Europe overall. And, we're about the same size.

However, comparing apples with apples - France has a homicide rate of 1.04 killings per 100,000 people per year, compared to 4.8 for the USA. France is way, way better than America in terms of murders.

United States - 4.8

Europe -- 5.2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate


Some European countries have very low rates like 1.0 - in that neighborhood.

Some US states do too -- Hawaii 1.1 -- Iowa 1.3

New Hampshire - Motto "Live Free or Die." Rate - 1.0

Wyoming 1.4
Utah 1.9

So, we're a big country. We're the size of Europe. Some of our States have higher rates than others. Overall, we're about the same as Europe in terms of homicides.

So, you were saying?

[Blind groper]

United States - 4.8

Europe -- 5.2

Again, a measure of desperation. If you want to compare the US to eastern Europe, it does not look so bad. Are you Americans so desperate that you cannot compare yourself to your peers?

My statement throughout has been "compared to advanced western countries". And every damn single one has a homicide rate less than 2 per 100,000 per year. Most closer to 1. Except the US with 4.8.

Anyway, to placate those who think I am anti-American.
There are some things I admire about the United States.
I admire the focus on science. The USA has had more Nobel winners in science than any other nation, and I applaud the wonderful scientific work being done.
I admire the space effort. The USA has done magnificent things, like putting up the Hubble telescope. Like the Cassini probe. etc. etc. I love it!
I admire the productions of Hollywood. I enjoy watching well made movies and TV shows.
I admire the work of silicon valley. Computers, iPads, iPhones and a whole raft of terrific toys.
My American friends, who are lovely people.

The things I hate most about the USA are the ways that the adminstration thinks it has the right to interfere with the sovereign independence of other nations, and freely attacks other nations. The amount of high level violence (putting bullets into people), the sick gun culture. The religious right wing. And the occasional "Ugly American" who makes arrogance into something utterly repugnant.

[Thumpalumpacus]

And the occasional "Ugly American" who makes arrogance into something utterly repugnant.

... said the guy whose three guided tours render him an expert on America.

[Coito ergo sum]

United States - 4.8

Europe -- 5.2

Again, a measure of desperation. If you want to compare the US to eastern Europe, it does not look so bad.

No. I compared the US to all of Europe. If you want to compare Denmark or Belgium to New York, then it doesn't look so bad for Denmark and Belgium does it? Same thing.

Let's go state, for state, and we can compare Europe's more homicidal countries, with the US's counterparts.

Are you Americans so desperate that you cannot compare yourself to your peers?

We do - I'm just not going to allow you to take the best 8 European countries, and compare them to the US as a whole. That's like me taking Vermont, New Hampshire, Wyoming, Iowa, Utah, Rhode Island, North Dakota and Hawaii and leaving out the rest.

My statement throughout has been "compared to advanced western countries". And every damn single one has a homicide rate less than 2 per 100,000 per year. Most closer to 1. Except the US with 4.8.

Right - pick the top few countries and leave the rest out. I'll take the top US states then, and compare to your select countries from the EU.

Anyway, to placate those who think I am anti-American.
There are some things I admire about the United States.
I admire the focus on science. The USA has had more Nobel winners in science than any other nation, and I applaud the wonderful scientific work being done.
I admire the space effort. The USA has done magnificent things, like putting up the Hubble telescope. Like the Cassini probe. etc. etc. I love it!
I admire the productions of Hollywood. I enjoy watching well made movies and TV shows.
I admire the work of silicon valley. Computers, iPads, iPhones and a whole raft of terrific toys.
My American friends, who are lovely people.

The things I hate most about the USA are the ways that the adminstration thinks it has the right to interfere with the sovereign independence of other nations, and freely attacks other nations. The amount of high level violence (putting bullets into people), the sick gun culture. The religious right wing. And the occasional "Ugly American" who makes arrogance into something utterly repugnant.

Similarly, I love many things about Europe and Aussie/NZ. I love Great Britain and Australia especially. The way the Europeans came out of WW2 and were able to rebuild very quickly. The tenacity. Etc. The European Space Agency has made leaps and bounds. Airbus. Many other things.

The things I hate most about Europe and Aussie/NZ is the not universal but certainly not uncommon arrogance and self-righteous superiority complexes that we are faced with. The monumental ignorance bothers me, especially when coupled with finger-pointing at Americans that we are the provincials and we are the insular ones. The Ugly European doesn't get near enough attention.

I like Aussie football, though, and the Aussie and NZ accents are really cool. Aussies and Brits tend to have more balls than mainland Europeans, and through all this discussion and argument, what I appreciate is the loyalty from Aussie and Britland as countries and friends of the US. Ultimately, we are in it together. And, we are on the side of right.