Census: Poor and "Near Poor" 1/3 of US

[Audley Strange]

So much for discussions.

What the fuck do you say to someone who insults you or lies every time they post?

I got a suggestion:

Why didn't I think of that?!

Fuck off Scheibster. I'm sure TR or Ratskep would LOVE to have you.

[maiforpeace]

Minimum wage sounds like it's a lot higher in the UK than the US. A lot higher.

ETA: Minimum wage is generally below the poverty line in the US. Just so everyone is aware.

And the UK has the NHS....HUGE difference. Audley did not take that into account.

Sounds like anti-US bigotry to me.

Bigotry is bigotry. Adults drop bigoted views when presented contradictory evidence.

Children try to get out of it.

Most Americans are pretty ignorant of what life is like in the UK too.

Audley, it's almost impossible for someone with a middle income, much less someone on minimum wage to get a mortgage TODAY. You and I lucked out.

My husband and I have impeccable credit and a middle income and we're going through hell just to refinance enough to lower our payments to cover the medical insurance we now are paying out of pocket since he had to take a pay cut and go on contract.

And, as I said earlier, here in the US we have to pay for our health care...with the monthly premium and our high deductible it's a significant expense.

Anyway, given your reply to the OP I guess anyone who can't get a mortgage today is simply whining and is just shit out of luck, eh?

[maiforpeace]

What a pity this thread has degenerated into mostly bickering drivel.

[Seth]

Brilliant. I've reduced you to emoticons. You have no argument. I win.

Well done! And he's still a liar.

Not to mention a backpeddling hypocritical self-satisfied bigot who uses (forgive me I'm pinching this from you,was it Alensky?) tactics because he cannot argue his position well enough.

I tell you something, when you I and Gawd can see it, considering how opposed we can be on many things, I'd say we'd got his number.

Alinsky, Saul Alinsky-- "Rules for Radicals."

[Schneibster]

Children will be children. We could all complain or try to get you to moderate to fix it, but we already seen that and it didn't work, that's why we're all here. We can discuss it more later. It'll come up again.

[Seth]

What a pity this thread has degenerated into mostly bickering drivel.

Well, blame Schneibster for that. He's the one who is lying and insulting people, so he's just getting what he deserves in return.

[Seth]

Minimum wage sounds like it's a lot higher in the UK than the US. A lot higher.

ETA: Minimum wage is generally below the poverty line in the US. Just so everyone is aware.

And the UK has the NHS....HUGE difference. Audley did not take that into account.

Sounds like anti-US bigotry to me.

Bigotry is bigotry. Adults drop bigoted views when presented contradictory evidence.

Children try to get out of it.

Most Americans are pretty ignorant of what life is like in the UK too.

Audley, it's almost impossible for someone with a middle income, much less someone on minimum wage to get a mortgage TODAY. You and I lucked out.

My husband and I have impeccable credit and a middle income and we're going through hell just to refinance enough to lower our payments to cover the medical insurance we now are paying out of pocket since he had to take a pay cut and go on contract.

And, as I said earlier, here in the US we have to pay for our health care...with the monthly premium and our high deductible it's a significant expense.

You might more properly say that here in the US we don't make other people pay for our health care. And why should we? Your health care issues are not my problem, nor are mine yours. You don't HAVE to have health insurance, you know. You CAN just buy your health care a-la-carte, from the lowest bidder, when you need it, and you'll probably save a lot of money in the process, particularly if you put what you spend now on the insurance racket into a savings account and leave it there rather than tapping it for a new microwave.

Anyway, given your reply to the OP I guess anyone who can't get a mortgage today is simply whining and is just shit out of luck, eh?

Many people who shouldn't have mortgages don't have mortgages. So what? They are what they should be: Renters. What's wrong with that? Renting's actually a great plan. You are highly mobile (you can move when and where you need to in order to maximize your return on renting your job-skills set) and you aren't responsible for maintenance, taxes or other stuff that burdens homeowners. I'm happy to be a renter now, lots of crap off my plate. If my landlord starts giving me crap, I can move to a new house in a new community whenever I like.

Owning a house isn't all that, you know.

[Seth]

Brilliant. I've reduced you to emoticons. You have no argument. I win.

And tell your new butt-buddy Seth "hi" for us all too.

"Us all?" Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or is your schizophrenia showing?

[Seth]

Brilliant. I've reduced you to emoticons. You have no argument. I win.

And tell your new butt-buddy Seth "hi" for us all too.

Certainly

Bye.

Promise?

[Geoff]

Minimum wage sounds like it's a lot higher in the UK than the US. A lot higher.

ETA: Minimum wage is generally below the poverty line in the US. Just so everyone is aware.

And the UK has the NHS....HUGE difference. Audley did not take that into account.

Sounds like anti-US bigotry to me.

Bigotry is bigotry. Adults drop bigoted views when presented contradictory evidence.

Children try to get out of it.

Most Americans are pretty ignorant of what life is like in the UK too.

Audley, it's almost impossible for someone with a middle income, much less someone on minimum wage to get a mortgage TODAY. You and I lucked out.

My husband and I have impeccable credit and a middle income and we're going through hell just to refinance enough to lower our payments to cover the medical insurance we now are paying out of pocket since he had to take a pay cut and go on contract.

And, as I said earlier, here in the US we have to pay for our health care...with the monthly premium and our high deductible it's a significant expense.

Anyway, given your reply to the OP I guess anyone who can't get a mortgage today is simply whining and is just shit out of luck, eh?

I agree it's difficult to compare the two countries, but over here the difficulty in getting a mortgage is largely offset by the relative reduction in rental costs, brought about by the massive increase in "buy-to-let" schemes. A typical one bedroom flat here lets for less than half the minimum wage, per month - I don't know how that compares to the US. Wages apart, the housing market trend has been going away from buying in favour of renting for decades now.

As Seth points out, though, in both countries the minimum wage, full time, is higher than the defined poverty level.

What a pity this thread has degenerated into mostly bickering drivel.

Yeah, but there are still some interesting peanuts amongst the shit...

EDIT: worryingly, though, I find myself agreeing with Seth, for the second time this year...

[Schneibster]

I agree it's difficult to compare the two countries, but over here the difficulty in getting a mortgage is largely offset by the relative reduction in rental costs, brought about by the massive increase in "buy-to-let" schemes. A typical one bedroom flat here lets for less than half the minimum wage, per month - I don't know how that compares to the US. Wages apart, the housing market trend has been going away from buying in favour of renting for decades now.

Here we had the conservatives (and they are far more conservative than yours) promote the "ownership society" and now that all the poor people tried to do what they told them the conservatives yanked the rug out and pointed at the agency that helped them get loans as if it caused the economic meltdown.

As if that weren't disgusting enough, rents aren't much cheaper than house payments. And we've had a housing bubble; so there are many underwater mortgages that can't afford to charge less than their overheated mortgage payment in rent. A typical one bedroom apartment here goes for about 130% of minimum wage.

As Seth points out, though, in both countries the minimum wage, full time, is higher than the defined poverty level.

The "defined poverty level" in the US is US$14,570/yr. What is it in Britain?

Minimum wage employees generally do not work full time. As a result most minimum wage employees are below the poverty line. The US government has been hiding this for decades. We can have a long conversation about it and I will produce proof if you like. Seth will deny it.

[Geoff]

The "defined poverty level" in the US is US$14,570/yr. What is it in Britain?

Minimum wage employees generally do not work full time. As a result most minimum wage employees are below the poverty line. The US government has been hiding this for decades. We can have a long conversation about it and I will produce proof if you like. Seth will deny it.

Latest figure I've seen is £10,500 pa. Min wage works out as £12k, near enough.

As I've said, I don't know enough about US costs of living to disagree with you on that, my original post was aimed at someone who said one couldn't live on minimum wage in the UK, which in my experience is simply wrong.

[charlou]

I'm 41.

Then you have no excuse for making fun of poor people.

I'm not reading Audley's contribution to this topic as making fun of poor people. He's expressing disdain for the notion that people who have housing and food are poor, when there are so many people who have far less.

It is alll relative.

Status Anxiety by Alain de Botton

Accordingly, the possession of a great many material goods becomes necessary not principally because these goods yield pleasure (though they may do this), but because they confer honour. In the ancient world, a debate had raged among philosophers about what was materially necessary for happiness and what unnecessary. Epicurus for one, had argued that simple food and shelter were necessary, but expensive houses & luxurious dishes could safely be bypassed by all rational, philosophically minded people. However, reviewing the argument many centuries later in The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith wryly pointed out that in modern, materialistic societies there were no doubt countless things which were unnecessary from the point of view of physical survival, but at the same time a great many more things had, practically speaking, come to be counted as 'necessaries', because no one could be thought respectable and so lead a psychologically comfortable life without owning them.

Since Smith's day, economists have been almost unanimous in subscribing to the idea that what defines, and lends bitterness to, the state of poverty is not so much direct physical suffering as the shame that flows from the negative reactions of others to one's state, from the way that poverty flouts what Smith termed 'the established rules of decency'. In The Affluent Society (1958 ), J.K. Galbraith proposed, with a bow to Smith, 'people are poverty-stricken whenever their income, even if adequate for survival, falls markedly behind that of the community. Even they cannot have what the larger community regards as the minimum necessary for decency; and they cannot wholly escape, therefore, the judgement of the larger community that they are indecent.'


The 'have-nots' are looked down upon as materially inferior, and their material status also seems to influence the way they are generally perceived, intellectually and morally.

[Schneibster]

€1085.81 as of July this year in the UK, google figure (they didn't have it in GBP). Conversion factor to dollars is 1.3755, thus US$1493.53/mo, with a working month of 21 days that's US$8.89/hr. Your poverty rate is more than our minimum wage, assuming a 40 hour week which almost no minimum wage earner in the US gets.

It's pretty bad over here. We're not just whining.

[PsychoSerenity]

I'm 41.

Then you have no excuse for making fun of poor people.

I'm not reading Audley's contribution to this topic as making fun of poor people. He's expressing disdain for the notion that people who have housing and food are poor, when there are so many people who have far less.

It is alll relative.

Status Anxiety by Alain de Botton

Accordingly, the possession of a great many material goods becomes necessary not principally because these goods yield pleasure (though they may do this), but because they confer honour. In the ancient world, a debate had raged among philosophers about what was materially necessary for happiness and what unnecessary. Epicurus for one, had argued that simple food and shelter were necessary, but expensive houses & luxurious dishes could safely be bypassed by all rational, philosophically minded people. However, reviewing the argument many centuries later in The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith wryly pointed out that in modern, materialistic societies there were no doubt countless things which were unnecessary from the point of view of physical survival, but at the same time a great many more things had, practically speaking, come to be counted as 'necessaries', because no one could be thought respectable and so lead a psychologically comfortable life without owning them.

Since Smith's day, economists have been almost unanimous in subscribing to the idea that what defines, and lends bitterness to, the state of poverty is not so much direct physical suffering as the shame that flows from the negative reactions of others to one's state, from the way that poverty flouts what Smith termed 'the established rules of decency'. In The Affluent Society (1958 ), J.K. Galbraith proposed, with a bow to Smith, 'people are poverty-stricken whenever their income, even if adequate for survival, falls markedly behind that of the community. Even they cannot have what the larger community regards as the minimum necessary for decency; and they cannot wholly escape, therefore, the judgement of the larger community that they are indecent.'


The 'have-nots' are looked down upon as materially inferior, and their material status also seems to influence the way they are generally perceived, intellectually and morally.

Oooh now this is interesting.

Now torrenting the documentary of the same name.