Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtube

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Seth
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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Seth » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:50 pm

mistermack wrote:I would stay off Afghanistan if I were you.
There is no better example on Earth of a country where everyone is armed and willing and able to take on the government. And look at the result.
The plethora of weapons is the reason that a democratic government can't hang on to power.
That means that the will of the people means NOTHING.

And you just end up with loads of warlords, which you seem to view as some form of government.

The facts are against you there. The only examples of that form of government are Afghanistan and Somalia. Neither have much to recommend them.
It is a form of government. It's a very ancient and actually quite stable, if rather primitive form of government that's been in place in Afghanistan for probably thousands of years. Tribalism is a valid form of government, if that's what the people want. Democracy ain't all that, you know. Even our founding documents recognize that it is the will of the People that is important, and if they want to live in a tribal culture, it's their absolute right to live in a tribal culture.

That's why I object to being in Afghanistan one second longer than it takes to kill off the Al Quaeda operatives responsible for 9/11.

If they want to live under Taliban rule, then they have a right to choose to live under Taliban rule. If they don't want to live under Taliban rule, then it's up to THEM to toss the Taliban under the bus.

My preferred intervention in such situations is to air-drop thousands of pallets of individual arms and ammunition to every backwater goat-herder and village in the country so that they can fight it out for themselves. The problem, as always, with despotic regimes, including Afghanistan and Venezuela under Chaves (and every other banana republic dictatorship in South America) has never been too many guns, it's been not enough guns in the hands of ordinary citizens, which gives them the chance to constitute the society and government as they see fit, rather than as some armed despot or military dictator sees fit.

You grossly misunderstand the situation in both Afghanistan and Somalia. It is NOT TRUE that everyone is armed in either place. If the occupants of the refugee camps in Somalia and Kenya were all armed, the Islamofascist rebel forces wouldn't have a chance. It's precisely because the average civilian does NOT have arms that the Islamic militants are able to control them unopposed. The same is true in Afghanistan to a lesser degree.

The problem in both Somalia and Afghanistan is not too many arms, it's too few arms and cultures which do not value democracy or individual rights. You too easily place the blame on weapons when it's actually cultural influences that have the largest effect on whether people live in freedom or slavery.

Afghanistan is a primitive, tribal culture. They do not have advanced democratic thinking as a core value of their society or culture. This is very likely a self-reinforcing loop of primitivism and lack of advanced technology and infrastructure that makes a primitive tribal system far more useful and stable than a nation-wide democracy or republic of some sort.

The same is true of Somalia. They are primitive people with primitive understandings, and their cultural organization reflects their primitive thinking, and tribalism is an effective and stable form of government in primitive situations.

If the people want a democracy, then they will have it, but they need arms if they are to overthrow a different cultural meme that holds them by force.

It is impossible, however, to impose democracy on some culture, as the US stupidly tries to do again and again. The desire for individual freedom and democracy must come from within. It can be supported, but not imposed.

People have a right to live in whatever cultural meme they think will provide for their safety and happiness, even if they are wrong.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Gallstones » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:00 pm

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Gallstones wrote:
mistermack wrote: What if the moron is TRAINED?
You would still have to be specially chosen.
By whom? And what makes that person the proper arbiter of another individual's right to bear arms in self-defense?
We have that situation here now.
Police are assessed during recruitment, and later assessed as to whether they are suitable for firearms training. Soldiers go through a similar process, but the standards are lower, as they don't generally have to bear arms around our own civilians.
For the most part, it works ok.
Somebody fucked up the quotes. :coffee:
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The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Gallstones » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:06 pm

mistermack wrote:
Cunt wrote: I noticed that you still haven't answered as to who should say who can and cannot bear arms.

Whose job is it to protect you, mistermack? Do you take responsibility for them bearing arms?
Fuck me, it's not rocket science. It's tiresome to have to explain the bleedn obvious but here goes.

We have police forces, and armed services.
That's where arms belong. If it became impossible to recruit those, the public would be forced to organise part time forces. I can't see that happening any time soon.
They are selected for suitability and trained.

It's the same all over the world, so I can't see why you asked the question.
This is a good idea because police and armed services personnel never abuse their position and kill or shoot people who don't deserve it.
Yeah, I feel comfortable with this.

Totally foolproof.

mistermack wrote:I'm saying ban private firearms.
On the other hand....................I have to say no to this.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Robert_S » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:16 pm

Seth wrote:It is impossible, however, to impose democracy on some culture, as the US stupidly tries to do again and again. The desire for individual freedom and democracy must come from within. It can be supported, but not imposed.

People have a right to live in whatever cultural meme they think will provide for their safety and happiness, even if they are wrong.
:this:
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Cunt » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:36 pm

mistermack wrote:
Cunt wrote: I noticed that you still haven't answered as to who should say who can and cannot bear arms.

Whose job is it to protect you, mistermack? Do you take responsibility for them bearing arms?
Fuck me, it's not rocket science. It's tiresome to have to explain the bleedn obvious but here goes.

We have police forces, and armed services.
That's where arms belong. If it became impossible to recruit those, the public would be forced to organise part time forces. I can't see that happening any time soon.
They are selected for suitability and trained.

It's the same all over the world, so I can't see why you asked the question.

I'm saying ban private firearms.
So you want them only in the hands of government.

Your warders will enjoy that. I will continue to take some personal responsibility for my own protection, thanks.

The police have often been shown to be bullies and tyrants. Ditto for governments. I would rather have guns in the hands of ONLY those who want them. Keeps the police from having to do all the shit-work.
Shit, Piss, Cock, Cunt, Motherfucker, Cocksucker and Tits.
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Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate
Free speech anywhere, is a threat to tyrants everywhere.

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by mistermack » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:27 pm

For fuck's sake Seth, can't you say what you want in fewer words?
I look at your posts and my heart sinks.

But replying to the first bit, no, I'm not protected all of the time. That's bleenin obvious.
People in this country don't need protection 24/7.
If you have guns, you're still not safe 24/7. Nobody is safe in this world.

But I'm safer than you, and I've got no guns. I'm going on what FBM said, that he's had to draw a weapon three times.
I've never had to use any kind of weapon and I'm sixty. There are guns about in this country, but they are far fewer, and mostly used between drug gangs, and usually they use your logic. "Others have them, so I need them for protection".
Gun wielding muggers and burglars are extremely rare over here.

Obviously, it's not perfect here. I would raise the penalties for being in possession of illegal weapons dramatically, and also for supplying them at any stage. And the same would go for ammunition.
And illegal importation would be in the same bracket, or even higher.

People only respond to real consequences of their actions.

But the truth is that there is a vast amount of money involved in guns in the US.
That's the main reason that nothing will change.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by mistermack » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:34 pm

Cunt wrote: I would rather have guns in the hands of ONLY those who want them. Keeps the police from having to do all the shit-work.
Like I've said before, the people who want them are mostly sad and inadequate.
They are the very worst people to own guns.

The rule should be that only people who DON'T want them should be allowed to handle them.
And since you mentioned it previously, Seth would be the VERY LAST person that I would like to see armed. And you would be last but one.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Gallstones » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:50 pm

mistermack wrote:
Cunt wrote: I would rather have guns in the hands of ONLY those who want them. Keeps the police from having to do all the shit-work.
Like I've said before, the people who want them are mostly sad and inadequate.
They are the very worst people to own guns.

The rule should be that only people who DON'T want them should be allowed to handle them.
And since you mentioned it previously, Seth would be the VERY LAST person that I would like to see armed. And you would be last but one.
Thank the nogod that there are fully informed experts like yourself to decide the right thing for the rest of us to do.
It should make me sleep well at night.

I really like guns, big and small.
I'm not feeling sad in the least either, as a matter of fact I'm feeling really fucking good.
I am also demonstrably quite competent--beyond adequate BTW--at a large number of things.

My son really likes guns too.
And he is demonstrably quite competent with them.
He's pretty happy most of the time too.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Gallstones » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:56 pm

mistermack wrote:But I'm safer than you, and I've got no guns.
Perhaps you are safer without guns where you live.

I'm safer with them where I live.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by mistermack » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:59 pm

Sad, as in a sad case.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Robert_S » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:01 pm

mistermack wrote:Sad, as in a sad case.
It seems to me that a lot of anti-gun people have stronger and more frequent emotions about guns than most gun owners.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by mistermack » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:10 pm

Robert_S wrote:
mistermack wrote:Sad, as in a sad case.
It seems to me that a lot of anti-gun people have stronger and more frequent emotions about guns than most gun owners.
Well, that's where you're wrong, in my case.
I don't give a toss about guns. I just have a great contempt for gun lovers.
( Having met quite a few ). Does that clear things up?
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Robert_S » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:37 pm

mistermack wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
mistermack wrote:Sad, as in a sad case.
It seems to me that a lot of anti-gun people have stronger and more frequent emotions about guns than most gun owners.
Well, that's where you're wrong, in my case.
I don't give a toss about guns. I just have a great contempt for gun lovers.
( Having met quite a few ). Does that clear things up?
I don't think too highly of cuckoo clock collectors, but I don't say much about it.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by Gallstones » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:42 pm

Robert_S wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
mistermack wrote:Sad, as in a sad case.
It seems to me that a lot of anti-gun people have stronger and more frequent emotions about guns than most gun owners.
Well, that's where you're wrong, in my case.
I don't give a toss about guns. I just have a great contempt for gun lovers.
( Having met quite a few ). Does that clear things up?
I don't think too highly of cuckoo clock collectors, but I don't say much about it.
  • :hilarious:
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

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Re: Man jailed for dead girl 'trolling' insults on FB,Youtub

Post by mistermack » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:06 am

Robert_S wrote: I don't think too highly of cuckoo clock collectors, but I don't say much about it.
Yeh well, it's people like you, who look the other way, who share responsibility for all the cuckoo clock related tragedies.
I hope you're proud of yourself.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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