You guys and your guns...

[mistermack]

Just for the record, I know Gawdzilla doesn't give a toss what I write. If he was a delicate flower, I would leave him to his happy gun fantasies and not comment.
But what I said was true. All this ritual of gun-competence and responsible gun ownership IS part of the fantasy.
If you can't see it, you are deluding yourself.

You are telling yourself "I'm not just a powerful dealer of swift justice to the bad men, I'm a person to be looked up to and relied on, because I can safely handle these DANGEROUS weapons".

Just like batman, superman, Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, take your pick.

That's what I hear, when someone starts banging on about how safe they are with their "firearms".
Fucking delusions. And that's what this thread is about, so I make no apologies for saying it.

As far as vets go, I really don't give a toss about vets, one way or the other.
I've known a few, and some are fine, many are complete loonies. Just like the rest of mankind.
This grovelling hero worship of vets is pathetic.

They were in a war. The war's over. Shut the fuck up.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Pat, pat, pat.

[Gallstones]

.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

.

Just a troll.

[Svartalf]

Minigun.

You are weak on the spray-and-pray concept.

Can you name a higher handheld fire rate?

Handheld? there are 'handheld' miniguns?
Last I heard, every gatling gun made since 1950 has been a vehicle integrated <eapon system, and every human operated gat is a museum piece, not that any of them was ever a hand held (as opposed to vehicle mounted, emplaced, or tripod sitting)) weapon.

[Seth]

Perhaps this admission is the most telling aspect of your hypothesis.
It's personal.

Certainly.
The truth of any assertion is made more powerful if it is personal. If I, as a person who clearly sees the problems of gun enthusiasm, feel the pull of the 'gunfighter fantasy' anyway, I have to conclude that the pull is even stronger in those who have embraced it.

That's because you are an ignoramus when it comes to the reality of the "gunfighter fantasy." You are basing your specious rationalizations on Hollywood fiction and exactly zero practical experience with handguns or gunfighting. If and when you come to understand the reality of actual gunfighting through careful training and experience, you might come to realize that it's nothing at all like what you think it is. There are several people here who might give you some insights into the realities of carrying and using a handgun, but I suspect your head is way too far up your ass for you to use any of those resources or information in making a rational analysis of the situation.

The problem is that large numbers of people who embrace that fantasy are likely to have their behaviour modified in ways that represent a danger to other people. Those who carry loaded hand guns in public are a major danger.

Strangely, the millions of people who currently choose to do so lawfully in the US in the 40 states where it's legal completely debunk this asinine ignorant know-nothing bloviating. Turns out that they are actually much, much more law-abiding and far less of a danger than even your average non-gun-carrying Joe Blow citizen. Sucks to be you when the facts prove you to be so hideously mistaken.

[Seth]

Tools are not in and of themselves good or bad. Surely we can agree on that?

That is true. The thing is, though, that tools convey power. Sometimes the power is good. A plow increases agricultural productivity which is good. A set monofilament gill net leads to fishermen wiping out whole species, which is bad. It is not the fault of the tool, but the tool permits things to happen which would not, if the tool were not available.

Hand guns are a tool which permit murder, where murder would not otherwise happen. Obviously the murders are committed by nasty people. Not by the hand gun alone. Not normally by good people, either. But without the hand gun, the nasty individual would very likely fail in his murder attempt.

This of course is utter nonsense. Someone who is intent on murdering someone will always find a tool to do it with, from an automobile to a baseball bat. And the fact that murderers use handguns only means that their potential victims have a right to be armed AT LEAST as well as their attacker so that they have a chance to effectively defend themselves.

Comparing the USA and New Zealand is valid in this context. NZ has as much violent crime per capita (inasfar as lousy measurements can compare), and NZ has a lot of street gangs with violent tendencies. However, the violent acts of those nasty people rarely results in fatalities. A club, chain or knife can inflict wounds, but usually not death. An hand gun, though, inflicts death rather too often. As a result, the per capita murder rate of the USA is 3.35 times as great as NZ.

But the violent crime victimization rate is, as you admit, much higher. Each and every person so violated in NZ has a fundamental right, even under the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" to defend themselves against such attacks. And when it comes to defending yourself against a vicious and violent criminal, you ALWAYS want to be better armed and more capable of deterring or defeating your attacker than they are...or at the very least you have a right to be as well armed as they are.

Your insistence on focusing only on the illegal use of handguns to commit crime, and your complete unwillingness to acknowledge that handguns are actually used far MORE often as tools of self defense by the victims of criminal violence demonstrates your lack of objectivity and your pre-determined bias, which makes your argument specious, noxious and unworthy of respect.

[Seth]

Just for the record, I know Gawdzilla doesn't give a toss what I write. If he was a delicate flower, I would leave him to his happy gun fantasies and not comment.
But what I said was true. All this ritual of gun-competence and responsible gun ownership IS part of the fantasy.
If you can't see it, you are deluding yourself.

You are telling yourself "I'm not just a powerful dealer of swift justice to the bad men, I'm a person to be looked up to and relied on, because I can safely handle these DANGEROUS weapons".

Just like batman, superman, Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, take your pick.

That's what I hear, when someone starts banging on about how safe they are with their "firearms".
Fucking delusions. And that's what this thread is about, so I make no apologies for saying it.

As far as vets go, I really don't give a toss about vets, one way or the other.
I've known a few, and some are fine, many are complete loonies. Just like the rest of mankind.
This grovelling hero worship of vets is pathetic.

They were in a war. The war's over. Shut the fuck up.

And you're a fucking coward.

[MrJonno]

That reminds me of what my mother taught me

1) You are never as important as you think you are
2) Never never under any circumstance try to be a hero

Pretty sound advice

[Gawdzilla Sama]

2) Never never under any circumstance try to be a hero

The heroes I've known never planned on gaining that status.

[Seth]

2) Never never under any circumstance try to be a hero

The heroes I've known never planned on gaining that status.

Yup, same here.

[Seth]

That reminds me of what my mother taught me

1) You are never as important as you think you are
2) Never never under any circumstance try to be a hero

Pretty sound advice

Translation: You're nothing, and Mommy wants you to be a coward your whole life so you can stick around and take care of her.

[MrJonno]

2) Never never under any circumstance try to be a hero

The heroes I've known never planned on gaining that status.

No trying involved then

[Gawdzilla Sama]

2) Never never under any circumstance try to be a hero

The heroes I've known never planned on gaining that status.

No trying involved then

Eh? Most of them were in the right place at the wrong time.

[mistermack]

2) Never never under any circumstance try to be a hero

The heroes I've known never planned on gaining that status.

No trying involved then

Eh? Most of them were in the right place at the wrong time.

Yeh. Someone elses country.