What if the US did nothing?

[Tyrannical]

Let see now

Japan was never interested in invading the US. Pearl Harbor was to knock out the Pacific fleet to prevent the US from getting involved in East Asia. It worked for a time, but it also pissed us off.

Hitler had no interest in invading the US. Their declaration of war was to support Japan and to discourage the US from entering the war.

Stalin would have invaded Eastern Europe, I just think Hitler attacked first. Stalin did not have a defensive army as indicated by the large number of paratroopers and his air / armor deployment. If Stalin was planning peace his army would have been too far east for a German surprise invasion.

WWII was colonial powers fighting over colonized countries. The US probably should not have gotten involved, and if we made that known would not have been attacked by Japan and Germany. Japan would have stolen China for the British, and Hitler would have stolen North Africa from the, uh British I don't think the Axis powers wanted world domination.
Hitler certainly wanted German people and lands unified into one German country, which I can't really find fault with. Yes he invaded France, but France declared war first. And they are the French I don't know if he really wanted to rule over some new Holy Roman Empire or some such. Germany runs the EU, so one way or another

[Tyrannical]

US Army infantry slashed from Normandy to Berlin in 10 months through the same German Army that threw "...The whole root and core and brain of the British Army" into the sea. Americans shot better, moved better, carried more shit faster, inflicted hellacious casualties, took the Mother of all WWII counteroffensives square in the nose and came back with a vicious right hook to the Ardennes that turned the German lights out. They weren't malnourished half-equipped scavenging Russians, they were big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle, well armed and fighting for their homes.

Not by the time the Ardennes bulge took place, they weren't. And they had lost the biggest battle of the war two years earlier. The Soviets won that one.

I have personal connections with all of that. One of my grandfathers spent seven years in Siberia after being bailed up during a nighttime recce in Stalingrad. My father escaped the Russian encirclement of East Prussia and Pommerania after he was wounded. He was a Lieutenant at 20. Straight after he finished school he was trained in the army. Six weeks later he was at the front. He said he was not particularly good at being a soldier - that he was made an officer because the veterans above him kept getting killed. One of my uncles was killed on the western front at the time of the Ardennes counteroffensive. He was 16 years old, ffs, and he was not a volunteer. So much for "big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle". They were all but snuffed out before the Normandy landing, sometimes even by their own superiors. Rommel was not the only victim of official "disapproval" from above.

The US was the only large country where a large amount of the populace was already a skilled firearm user before being drafted into the military. The Boy Scouts for example which was very popular back then taught camping, survival skills, and shooting at early teen ages. You don't get those prerequisite military skills taught at a young age any where else. Some children raised in a heavily hunting environment might as well have been Spartans since their concealment and marksmanship skill would have been expert as of first entering the army. In video game terms troops would have started as regulars and veterans

[mistermack]

What if the US had done nothing in ........... Angola?

They supported this man :




And managed to keep the civil war going for 26 years, 4 months, 3 weeks and 3 days.
And they still lost it.

Surely it would have been better if the US had done nothing? Again?
Of course, it was black people dying, in a far-away land, so it didn't REALLY matter in Washington.

By the time the MPLA finally achieved victory in 2002, more than 500,000 people had died and over one million had been internally displaced. The war devastated Angola's infrastructure, and severely damaged the nation's public administration, economic enterprises, and religious institutions.

[Hermit]

Let see now

Japan was never interested in invading the US. Pearl Harbor was to knock out the Pacific fleet to prevent the US from getting involved in East Asia. It worked for a time, but it also pissed us off.

Hitler had no interest in invading the US. Their declaration of war was to support Japan and to discourage the US from entering the war.

Stalin would have invaded Eastern Europe, I just think Hitler attacked first. Stalin did not have a defensive army as indicated by the large number of paratroopers and his air / armor deployment. If Stalin was planning peace his army would have been too far east for a German surprise invasion.

WWII was colonial powers fighting over colonized countries. The US probably should not have gotten involved, and if we made that known would not have been attacked by Japan and Germany. Japan would have stolen China for the British, and Hitler would have stolen North Africa from the, uh British I don't think the Axis powers wanted world domination.
Hitler certainly wanted German people and lands unified into one German country, which I can't really find fault with. Yes he invaded France, but France declared war first. And they are the French I don't know if he really wanted to rule over some new Holy Roman Empire or some such. Germany runs the EU, so one way or another

That's crap. Hitler was a megalomaniac who wanted to rid the entire globe of the twin scourges of civilisation - Jews and communists. And what did civilisation consist of for him? Yes, the Arian, or more specifically the German "race". That's what Hitler wanted to rule the world. With himself at the helm, of course.

[Tyrannical]

I think Hitler's megalomania and world conquest dreams can be a bit overstated. Maybe not the megalomania though

I've heard a theory before that Hitler if not for the war wanted to send all European Jews to Palestine.

[piscator]

Yeah. I should have known better.

US Army infantry slashed from Normandy to Berlin in 10 months through the same German Army that threw "...The whole root and core and brain of the British Army" into the sea. Americans shot better, moved better, carried more shit faster, inflicted hellacious casualties, took the Mother of all WWII counteroffensives square in the nose and came back with a vicious right hook to the Ardennes that turned the German lights out. They weren't malnourished half-equipped scavenging Russians, they were big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle, well armed and fighting for their homes.

Not by the time the Ardennes bulge took place, they weren't. And they had lost the biggest battle of the war two years earlier. The Soviets won that one.

I have personal connections with all of that. One of my grandfathers spent seven years in Siberia after being bailed up during a nighttime recce in Stalingrad. My father escaped the Russian encirclement of East Prussia and Pommerania after he was wounded. He was a Lieutenant at 20. Straight after he finished school he was trained in the army. Six weeks later he was at the front. He said he was not particularly good at being a soldier - that he was made an officer because the veterans above him kept getting killed. One of my uncles was killed on the western front at the time of the Ardennes counteroffensive. He was 16 years old, ffs, and he was not a volunteer. So much for "big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle". They were all but snuffed out before the Normandy landing, sometimes even by their own superiors. Rommel was not the only victim of official "disapproval" from above.

Well, Hitler hadn't killed von Runstedt, Model, and von Manteuffel when the Germans surprise attacked a weak spot in the Ardennes with 3:1 superiority in men, 2:1 in Panzers, and 5:1 in artillery. Von Runstedt and Model were just off handing Montgomery his ass in Holland, and had never lost a battle because Hitler pulled them out of the way of the Americans in Normandy. German gunners had enough ammo to fire 88s at single Americans, and German Panzers had enough fuel and ammo to drive right back to Normandy.

Stalingrad: The Russians flanked, cut off, and surrounded Paulus' 6th, the spearhead of a 900 mile 6-month German victory march while the German supply lines were bogged down in the mud of the singletrack dirt roads and plowed fields between the peasant villages and occasional river town that made up the western USSR, and ran the Wehrmacht out of ammo with their own bodies.
Not to take anything away from the Russians who rode American trucks in to win a protracted meatgrinder siege through numerical superiority on the Volga and then built slave labor camps to work the prisoners to death, but the outnumbered Americans in the Ardennes cut off a focused high density hammer stroke where the Germans owned the high ground and could fight from cover, in a matter of days. They did it by turning the German salient into the crossfire of an L-shaped ambush, which is how you win a fucking battle.


And Audie Murphy was 19 when the French awarded him the Legion of Honor and the Belgians awarded him the Croix de Guerre. He had already killed over 100 Germans in combat while serving with units that took 95% casualties before his actions in the Colmar Pocket. He was 5'2" tall, 130 lbs, and his previous job was hunting rabbits and working in a gas station in Farmersville, Texas.

[Hermit]

US Army infantry slashed from Normandy to Berlin in 10 months through the same German Army that threw "...The whole root and core and brain of the British Army" into the sea. Americans shot better, moved better, carried more shit faster, inflicted hellacious casualties, took the Mother of all WWII counteroffensives square in the nose and came back with a vicious right hook to the Ardennes that turned the German lights out. They weren't malnourished half-equipped scavenging Russians, they were big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle, well armed and fighting for their homes.

Not by the time the Ardennes bulge took place, they weren't. And they had lost the biggest battle of the war two years earlier. The Soviets won that one.

I have personal connections with all of that. One of my grandfathers spent seven years in Siberia after being bailed up during a nighttime recce in Stalingrad. My father escaped the Russian encirclement of East Prussia and Pommerania after he was wounded. He was a Lieutenant at 20. Straight after he finished school he was trained in the army. Six weeks later he was at the front. He said he was not particularly good at being a soldier - that he was made an officer because the veterans above him kept getting killed. One of my uncles was killed on the western front at the time of the Ardennes counteroffensive. He was 16 years old, ffs, and he was not a volunteer. So much for "big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle". They were all but snuffed out before the Normandy landing, sometimes even by their own superiors. Rommel was not the only victim of official "disapproval" from above.

Well, Hitler hadn't killed von Runstedt, Model, and von Manteuffel when the Germans surprise attacked a weak spot in the Ardennes with 3:1 superiority in men, 2:1 in Panzers, and 5:1 in artillery. Von Runstedt and Model were just off handing Montgomery his ass in Holland, and had never lost a battle because Hitler pulled them out of the way of the Americans in Normandy. German gunners had enough ammo to fire 88s at single Americans, and German Panzers had enough fuel and ammo to drive right back to Normandy.

I do not wish to cast aspersions on the bravery, fighting ability and such of the US soldiers, but the fact remains that the German Wehrmacht was at is fag's end. The objective of the Ardenne offensive was to split the British and American forces and to recapture the deep-sea harbour at Antwerp. The German generals noted that there was only enough fuel for their tanks to get one third or half way there. The Ardennes offensive was a last gasp. Look at the situation:

The plan originally called for just under 45 divisions, including a dozen panzer and panzergrenadier divisions forming the armored spearhead and various infantry units to form a defensive line as the battle unfolded. By this time, however, the German Army suffered from an acute manpower shortage and the force had been reduced to around 30 divisions. Although it retained most of its armor, there were not enough infantry units because of the defensive needs in the East. These 30 newly rebuilt divisions used some of the last reserves of the German Army. Among them were Volksgrenadier units formed from a mix of battle-hardened veterans and recruits formerly regarded as too young or too old to fight. Training time, equipment and supplies were inadequate during the preparations. German fuel supplies were precarious—those materials and supplies that could not be directly transported by rail had to be horse-drawn to conserve fuel, and the mechanized and panzer divisions would depend heavily on captured fuel.

Link

Yes, the US soldiers did fight valiantly, but their opponents - by an large - were not "big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle, well armed..." by that time. Luckily, I have recorded some of my father's recollections of the last few months of the war just three months before he died. The German war machine was an utter shambles even before the last hurrah.

[piscator]

US Army infantry slashed from Normandy to Berlin in 10 months through the same German Army that threw "...The whole root and core and brain of the British Army" into the sea. Americans shot better, moved better, carried more shit faster, inflicted hellacious casualties, took the Mother of all WWII counteroffensives square in the nose and came back with a vicious right hook to the Ardennes that turned the German lights out. They weren't malnourished half-equipped scavenging Russians, they were big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle, well armed and fighting for their homes.

Not by the time the Ardennes bulge took place, they weren't. And they had lost the biggest battle of the war two years earlier. The Soviets won that one.

I have personal connections with all of that. One of my grandfathers spent seven years in Siberia after being bailed up during a nighttime recce in Stalingrad. My father escaped the Russian encirclement of East Prussia and Pommerania after he was wounded. He was a Lieutenant at 20. Straight after he finished school he was trained in the army. Six weeks later he was at the front. He said he was not particularly good at being a soldier - that he was made an officer because the veterans above him kept getting killed. One of my uncles was killed on the western front at the time of the Ardennes counteroffensive. He was 16 years old, ffs, and he was not a volunteer. So much for "big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle". They were all but snuffed out before the Normandy landing, sometimes even by their own superiors. Rommel was not the only victim of official "disapproval" from above.

Well, Hitler hadn't killed von Runstedt, Model, and von Manteuffel when the Germans surprise attacked a weak spot in the Ardennes with 3:1 superiority in men, 2:1 in Panzers, and 5:1 in artillery. Von Runstedt and Model were just off handing Montgomery his ass in Holland, and had never lost a battle because Hitler pulled them out of the way of the Americans in Normandy. German gunners had enough ammo to fire 88s at single Americans, and German Panzers had enough fuel and ammo to drive right back to Normandy.

I do not wish to cast aspersions on the bravery, fighting ability and such of the US soldiers, but the fact remains that the German Wehrmacht was at is fag's end. The objective of the Ardenne offensive was to split the British and American forces and to recapture the deep-sea harbour at Antwerp. The German generals noted that there was only enough fuel for their tanks to get one third or half way there. The Ardennes offensive was a last gasp. Look at the situation:

The plan originally called for just under 45 divisions, including a dozen panzer and panzergrenadier divisions forming the armored spearhead and various infantry units to form a defensive line as the battle unfolded. By this time, however, the German Army suffered from an acute manpower shortage and the force had been reduced to around 30 divisions. Although it retained most of its armor, there were not enough infantry units because of the defensive needs in the East. These 30 newly rebuilt divisions used some of the last reserves of the German Army. Among them were Volksgrenadier units formed from a mix of battle-hardened veterans and recruits formerly regarded as too young or too old to fight. Training time, equipment and supplies were inadequate during the preparations. German fuel supplies were precarious—those materials and supplies that could not be directly transported by rail had to be horse-drawn to conserve fuel, and the mechanized and panzer divisions would depend heavily on captured fuel.

Link

Yes, the US soldiers did fight valiantly, but their opponents - by an large - were not "big proud brave and brutal Wehrmacht veterans who'd never lost a battle, well armed..." by that time. Luckily, I have recorded some of my father's recollections of the last few months of the war just three months before he died. The German war machine was an utter shambles even before the last hurrah.

The Americans did that to the same armies that had previously conquered Europe. The Germans in the Ardennes weren't the remnants of Stalingrad, they were the best they could come up with for the hardest stoke they could strike.

If you look, you'll see that the German 7th Army had previously overran the Maginot Line and most of the attrition they suffered in the entire war was at the hands of Americans in Falaise. Then they were pulled back and had 3 months of rest before the Bulge. They weren't some shot up bunch of Hitler Youth and old men.

Then there was the 5th and 6th Panzers which spearheaded the Bulge. They had been resting and training specifically for a winter offensive in the Ardennes for about 2 months. The German high command specifically chose that area to make a strike because the countryside gave them a distinct advantage. Then they specifically chose a period of shitty weather to take American air power out of the mix for as long as possible.


Also, in the weeks before the Bulge there was significant troop movement by rail and air from the Russian front to von Rundstedt's (formerly Model's) OB West in preparation for the counteroffensive in the Ardennes. Some of the same German units that had kicked Russian ass since Operation Barbarossa were ground up by Americans in the Bulge.


Fact was, the Germans outnumbered the Americans, were trained for the Bulge, were rested, had more guns and tanks, had the best generals in the German Army, had favorable country, and still lost. You can say the Americans just beat a bunch of children if it makes you feel better, but the brunt of the German winter offensive fell on a bunch of REMF conscripts in an area thin of combat troops, and it was mostly the Americans who routed the German western armies and Panzer groups in 6 months in the first place.

And while you're talking about youth, you could mention a 23 year old Lieutenant John Singlaub, who parachuted into occupied France and organized French Resistance groups to fight Germans more than they fought each other along Communist/Nationalist lines...It was quite a coin toss how France was gonna go after the war...

[mistermack]

Yeh, American air power. That won the battle of the bulge. That and a lack of fuel for the Germans.

The US troops were shite. The Germans had been fighting for over four years, knew that they would lose the war, and just wanted to survive the war. But they still kicked the ass of the US army, till the planes got up again.

You ain't going to change facts with bullshit .

[piscator]

Yeh, American air power. That won the battle of the bulge. That and a lack of fuel for the Germans.

The US troops were shite. The Germans had been fighting for over four years, knew that they would lose the war, and just wanted to survive the war. But they still kicked the ass of the US army, till the planes got up again.

.

Those confounding American planes were part of the same American Army that won that battle and won that war.

If US troops were shit, what does that say about a generation of Australian women?

[Blind groper]

Fortunately most Americans are not like Piscator, Seth, and Collector. Most Americans are nice people who do not indulge in arrogance and self aggrandisement.

The suggestion that the western world depends on the USA is pure arrogance, and is wrong. In WWII, the American effort in Europe was valuable, and probably shortened the war by several years, and saved the lives of millions. However, without it, Hitler would still have lost. The greatest effort in WWII in Europe was by the Soviets. With the sacrifice of 25 million lives, they destroyed the German war machine and drove them back.

The USA, of course, won the Pacific war. But it is debatable whether Japan would have bothered to expand its Pacific borders anyway. Japan had its eye on Asia, and most especially China. Without the USA to oppose them, it is moot as to what the result would be. I suspect they would have run out of steam somewhere towards India. Conquest is one thing, but holding territory against a hostile bunch of locals is another. With millons of Chinese and many more millions of Indians fighting them (the Sikhs have always had a martial tradition, and are formidable fighters), they would likely have had to retreat eventually, and accepted a limited Japanese empire.

[Collector1337]

Fortunately most Americans are not like Piscator, Seth, and Collector. Most Americans are nice people who do not indulge in arrogance and self aggrandisement.

You've never met me, so how do you know how nice I am or not?

I expect examples of my alleged "arrogance and self aggrandizement" or I'll be expecting a retraction.

[mistermack]

Those confounding American planes were part of the same American Army that won that battle and won that war.

If US troops were shit, what does that say about a generation of Australian women?

I haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Have you?

[laklak]

Come on. To use a hackneyed phrase, if it weren't for the U.S. you'd be speaking German. Whether that was due to lend lease, the U.S. Army, the Merchant Marine protected convoys or a combination of all is immaterial. Britain was on the ropes after Dunkirk and the RAF was tapped out after the Blitz. Had Goering not been a drug addled idiot you wouldn't have lasted another three months, he had no idea how close to air superiority he actually was. I'm not taking anything away from the UK, y'all fought like cornered tigers, but without the material and military support of the U.S. you simply would not have prevailed. The best you could have hoped for was a negotiated peace, the worst was Sea Lion. The whole of the European coastline and the channel islands were under German control, they could have staged an invasion from almost any point with impunity. You might, just might, have been able to hang on by your fingernails while Adolf was caught up in the Eastern Front debacle, but without U.S. material aid to the USSR the outcome of that conflict would have been a coin toss. Whether the USSR or the US took the brunt makes no difference, without U.S. involvement the European map would look a lot different today.

[Seth]

...but without U.S. material aid to the USSR the outcome of that conflict would have been a coin toss.

This is something most people don't know about WWII...the amount of critical aid the US shipped to Russia. Perhaps the most important in terms of its success against the Nazis were the locomotives we sent them to replace those destroyed by Nazi air power. Without those locomotives Russia would not have been able to transport its troops and materials to their "western front" and Hitler would have rolled over them like he did Poland.

It was supply lines and the Russian winter that did much to defeat Hitler in Eastern Europe.