Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:04 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be no war. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel.
And here we all thought it was a complex problem. Silly us.
It is a very complex problem, but the quote still stands.
That quote is probably one of the most stupidly simplistic things I have ever seen.
It's simplistic yes, but far less simplistic and stupid than the allegations of "genocide" being bandied about here.

It's pretty evident who the aggressors are in this dispute. One side wants the other side pushed into the sea and "exterminated," and the "regime obliterated" and whatnot. One side openly calls for the destruction of the other. Which side is which?
rEvolutionist wrote:
eta: and no, I'm not going to explain why. Debating with you is probably one of the most pointless exercises on the planet.
LOL -- cool.

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:04 pm

Fuckit. Here's the facts of this particular flare up:
1. Israel broke a 24 hour ceasefire when it assasinated the Hamas leader (who was working on a truce with the Israelis).
2. Israel started the most recent flare up after two weeks of calm, by killing a 13 year old boy who was playing soccer; and by shooting another boy who walked too close to the border fence and refused to let ambulances pick him up and treat him (the boy died due to that).
3. It's clear to most people who are looking into this issue properly that this is politically motivated. First is the Palestinian move for recognition in the UN at the end of November (something which the Israeli's desperately don't want to happen), and the Israeli general election in January.
4. shitloads more stuff, but I can't be arsed. The info is all out there. Although, since you think CNN is a credible news source, it's unlikely you will come across it without actively going out and looking for it. Start with the Guardian.
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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:10 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be no war. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel.
And here we all thought it was a complex problem. Silly us.
It is a very complex problem, but the quote still stands.
That quote is probably one of the most stupidly simplistic things I have ever seen.
It's simplistic yes, but far less simplistic and stupid than the allegations of "genocide" being bandied about here.
I personally don't know whether it qualifies as 'genocide', but it's pretty clear that the Israeli's want to make Gaza go away. If you do a search you will find some extremely disturbing things said by various Israeli politicians and public figures in the last few days.

They seem happy enough with the Palestinians in the West Bank, so it's not a 'Palestinian' genocide thing. Probably more the wish to remove Gaza from the map.
It's pretty evident who the aggressors are in this dispute. One side wants the other side pushed into the sea and "exterminated," and the "regime obliterated" and whatnot. One side openly calls for the destruction of the other. Which side is which?
As I said, I'm fairly certain I read that Hamas changed its charter to get rid of the 'rid the middle east of Israel' thing. Even putting that aside, you only have to look at the death count and shrinking Palestinian lands to see which side is actually exterminating the other. Hint - It's Israel.
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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:11 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:moving and occupation aren't quite the same thing... :ask:
Well, JesusofNazerath used the word "moving."

Is Tel Aviv occupied territory? By whom? The Israeli government?
What the hell are you talking about? He was talking about illegal settlements.
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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:25 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:Fuckit. Here's the facts of this particular flare up:
1. Israel broke a 24 ceasefire when it assasinated the Hamas leader (who was working on a truce with the Israelis).
2. Israel started the most recent flare up after two weeks of calm, by killing a 13 year old boy who was playing soccer; and by shooting another boy who walked too close to the border fence and refused to let ambulances pick him up and treat him (the boy died due to that).
3. It's clear to most people who are looking into this issue properly that this is politically motivated. First is the Palestinian move for recognition in the UN at the end of November (something which the Israeli's desperately don't want to happen), and the Israeli general election in January.
4. shitloads more stuff, but I can't be arsed. The info is all out there. Although, since you think CNN is a credible news source, it's unlikely you will come across it without actively going out and looking for it. Start with the Guardian.

Look -- Hamas fires about 1,000 rockets per year into Israel, ceasefire or no ceasefire. The number went down when Israel undertook Operation Cast Lead, and Hamas dialed it down a notch. But, over the last year, Hamas was back up to over 1,000 rockets. They don't care about ceasefires, or at least in Hamas' mind a ceasefire doesn't mean that firing ceases. Hamas was emboldened through direct financial support through Qatar, and political support from Turkey and Egypt (especially now that Egypt is Islamist). Hamas was banking on a non- or limited response from Israel due to the increasing support Hamas has been getting from regional countries.

What you have in Gaza is an organization dedicated it the destruction of Israel, dedicated to killing of Jews. This is what they say openly. That is not an interpretation of what they're saying. This is what they're saying. It is in their charter. It is in their official documents. Once Israel withdrew totally from the Gaza Strip, they started shelling Israeli cities. It's that shelling that caused Israel to ultimately have to respond.

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:36 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:moving and occupation aren't quite the same thing... :ask:
Well, JesusofNazerath used the word "moving."

Is Tel Aviv occupied territory? By whom? The Israeli government?
What the hell are you talking about? He was talking about illegal settlements.
I'll let him clarify if that is what he meant -- what he said was, "Well, if the Jews stopped moving to Palestine then maybe Israel would could out breed the locals?"

Palestine is a region and it encompasses what is presently the State of Israel, the present Palestinian territories, Jordan, some of Egypt, etc. So, when he said "Jews moving to Palestine" it's not clear that he just means the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank. And, since the context of the conversation at the time was the demographic makeup of Israel itself (being 20% Arab), then the idea of Jews moving to Palestine seemed to me to relate to Israel as part of the region of Palestine too.

Now, if he's referring to Israelis moving into Palestinian territories, then I would just ask that he (or you) specify which settlements, and where they are located. Israel disengaged from the Sinai and voluntarily dismantled its Gaza strip settlements in conformity with peace talks, but of course as soon as it did that, militants started firing rockets from those locations into Israel.

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:41 pm

Image
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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:06 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:Image
The fallacy of that map is that "Palestinian" means "non-Jewish." It doesn't.

The map is also wrong, as "Palestine" in 1947 was bigger than that green area, and included the Jewish ares in white as well as areas not colored green or white in that little map.

"Palestine" was carved up into more than just "Israel" and "Palestinian" territories. Part of it became Jordan, for example. Part of it became Israel, for another example. And, in 1947, there was no such thing as a "Palestinian." They were Arabs. If you look at any documents from the time, you won't find references to Palestinians -- you'll find references to Arabs.

The map above is wrong, also, in that the West Bank was not formed by the UN as some sort of "Palestinian territory" in 1947 or 1949. The West Bank was part of the Mandate for Palestine beginning around 1918. Prior to that it was part of the Ottoman Empire and had been part of the Ottoman Empire for 450 years.

The British Mandate for Palestine involved different peoples -- Christians, Jews and Muslims, mostly Arabs, living in the same region. There was no nation of Palestine or people called Palestinians. There was no nation called Israel, and there was no nation called Jordan -- they did not exist at all in history.

So, in 1921, the country of Transjordan was created. Then in 1949, the country of Israel was created. The Arabs rejected the creation of the country of Israel, but not Jordan. The UN did not include the West Bank or Gaza in the nation of Israel.

Immediately upon the creation of Israel, the Arab nations attacked. After capturing the West Bank area during the 1948–49 war with Israel, King Abdullah of Transjordan took the title King of Jordan and, in April 1949, officially changed the country's name to the "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan". And Jordan annexed the West Bank. Jordan ruled the West Bank until 1967. In 1967, the Six Day War was started by the Arabs and Israel took control over the West Bank and Gaza.

The idea of the West Bank as being some sort of Palestinian country is a creature of the mid-1960's, when Arafat and the gang came to be in sort of a paramilitary organization called "the Palestinian Liberation Organization." Their goal, of course, is not just the "liberation" of the West Bank and Gaza, but the "liberation" of the entire area known as Palestine, which includes but is not limited to the current state of Israel, and what that means is "Jews out, or dead."

To support such an organization or goal is to support racism, bigotry and genocide. It is they, the PLO, and now Hamas, among others like the Hizb'Allah in Lebanon, etc., that want to exterminate the Jews, or at least force them to leave. If such talk occurred in any other context, like if people say "Mexicans, go home to Mexico!" it is properly characterized as racism and bigotry. However, for some reason, "Jews go home, or die" or words to that effect, is considered appropriate by many so-called "liberals" because for some reason they categorize Palestine as properly devoid of Jewishness.

It isn't. Jews are as entitled to live there as anyone else. And, Israel is as entitled to exist as Lebanon, Jordan or Iraq.

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:09 pm

The point of the map (regardless of any minor inaccuracies) is the trend. And regardless of the wall of text above, Israel is in violation of shitloads of UN resolutions regarding the occupation of Palestinian land.
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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:23 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
It's pretty evident who the aggressors are in this dispute. One side wants the other side pushed into the sea and "exterminated," and the "regime obliterated" and whatnot. One side openly calls for the destruction of the other. Which side is which?
As I said, I'm fairly certain I read that Hamas changed its charter to get rid of the 'rid the middle east of Israel' thing. Even putting that aside, you only have to look at the death count and shrinking Palestinian lands to see which side is actually exterminating the other. Hint - It's Israel.
This is not correct, since the the Palestinian Arab population has done noting but increase, both inside and outside of Israel, over the last 48 year. There is no "exterminating" of Arabs going on.

And, "Palestinian Lands" have always been about the same. In 1947, there were no Israeli or "Palestinian" lands. There was "Palestine" as I have described above, and it was a "region" in which many different peoples lived. It was ruled up until 1918 by the Ottoman Empire, and then after WW1 it became the British Mandate for Palestine. There were no Palestinians, though, at all. None. There were Arabs, and nonArabs living there, but there weren't any Palestinians - they were just Arabs. Then Jordan was formed out of whole cloth, just arbitrarily carved out of there. There were some Jews living in Jordan at the time, then known as Transjordan, but Transjordan got to be a Muslim country. Then in 1948-9, Israel was formed, arbitrarily, out of some of what remained. The Arab countries promptly attacked looking to exterminate the new nation of Israel because while "Muslim" countries were perfectly agreeable to the folks there, a "Jewish" country was considered a major catastrophe. Israel survived the attack, but Transjordan annexed the West Bank, changed it's name to Jordan, and then held the West Bank until 1967, when the Arabs attacked again, looking to destroy the country of Israel once and for all, but the Israeli's beat them back and Jordan lost the West Bank.

That's how it went down - that's just a timeline, not any sort of interpretation. Who has been trying to exterminate whom again?

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:26 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:The point of the map (regardless of any minor inaccuracies) is the trend.
Minor? It's false.
rEvolutionist wrote: And regardless of the wall of text above, Israel is in violation of shitloads of UN resolutions regarding the occupation of Palestinian land.
Wall of text? Gimme a break. It's just putting in context what you completely ignore. The history and the reality of the situation. You acknowledged that the situation is complex, but then your position on it is incredibly simplistic, with that utterly dopey map that pretends that there was some country of Palestine that the evil Jews have usurped and driven them out into these little islands of territory in the West Bank. That just, quite simply, is not what happened. It's not reality. It's propaganda.

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:35 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:Image
Image

Here is Jordan after 1950 when it Annexed the West Bank.

Image

It was like that until 1967, when the Arab countries started the 6 Day War, and Jordan lost the West Bank to Israel in the conflict.

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Gerald McGrew » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:33 pm

So if the Palestinians laid down their arms, Israel would stop expanding settlements into Palestinian lands, stop erecting walls, stop cutting off families, stop seizing lands, stop controlling the Palestinian economy, stop restricting the water supply to Palestinians....?

Really?
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:48 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote:So if the Palestinians laid down their arms, Israel would stop expanding settlements into Palestinian lands, stop erecting walls, stop cutting off families, stop seizing lands, stop controlling the Palestinian economy, stop restricting the water supply to Palestinians....?

Really?
The Israelis already stopped expanding settlements into Gaza. They pulled everyone out of there in 2005 in a unilateral disengagement -- Hamas and militants immediately moved in and began lobbing rockets into Israel from there. The West Bank, well, you'll have to specify which settlements you're talking about. The last new settlement authorized by the Israeli government in the West Bank was in 1999, 13 years ago.

I would submit that there ought not be a religious bar to living the West Bank. Why can't non-Muslims move there?

And, the kinds of settlements are important - for example -- Gush Etzion is composed of four communities, established between 1927 and 1947, which were destroyed by Arabs in 1948, but began to be reestablished beginning 1967 (after Israel took the West Bank in the Six Day War started by the Arabs).

What about Hebron, which had a Jewish presence for thousands of years, until they were forced out by the 1929 Hebron massacre? Then some families returned in 1931 but were evacuated by the British, and a few buildings were resettled in 1967.

What lands are actually being seized? Specifically. Name them.

As for walls -- if Israel builds a wall on its property, then that's its business.

As for the water issue, I don't know why the Palestinians can't get water from the Jordan River, or from Jordan itself, but the water issue can be negotiated.

And, as for the economy, if the Palestinians would spend the kind of effort they expend in trying to massacre Jews into building an economy, they might do well.

Frankly, they seem to me to be too small of a country to be on their own in this day and age. It's like Rhode Island being an independent nation. They should just rejoin Jordan and have done with it.

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Re: Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:02 pm

I drove by these assholes Friday evening -- http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/ ... ar-567163/

Hey Hey! Ho Ho!
Israel has got to Go!

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