Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

[Jason]

She didn't say 'good', she said 'fun'. You're making a tenuous leap from 'fun' to emotive infatuation with the power of a gun.

[Blind groper]

Pord

I can understand shooting at a target might be fun, since it is competitive and lots of people respond to competition in that way. I can understand how carrying a gun through the wilderness to hunt deer could be fun. I enjoy walking in the wilderness myself, though without the gun.

But how the hell can holding and pointing a tool for committing murder be fun, unless you are fantasizing the act?

[Gallstones]

I own my guns for fun.
I take the semi out nearly everyday just to handle it and play with it and practice aiming.
I go through my whole make-sure-it's-safe routine each time I take it out.
It rests beside me while I am at the desk.

This sounds to me just like the power based emotions I was discussing early. If holding and aiming the gun makes you feel good, then you fit perfectly my model of the gun owner who owns guns for purely emotional reasons - because it gives them a power kick.

OK. You win. Congratulations.
I am a sinner I like power based emotions and that is a very bad thing. We should only ever like the emotions of being weak and vulnerable because those emotions are righteous.
Thank you for showing me the light and bringing me to a new and better paradigm.

[Gallstones]

Pord

I can understand shooting at a target might be fun, since it is competitive and lots of people respond to competition in that way. I can understand how carrying a gun through the wilderness to hunt deer could be fun. I enjoy walking in the wilderness myself, though without the gun.

But how the hell can holding and pointing a tool for committing murder be fun, unless you are fantasizing the act?

• 

[Gallstones]

Notice my little gun?
It's pointed right at you.

[Svartalf]

Gallstones, you're one hell of a threatening lady.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Gallstones, you're one hell of a threatening lady.

Warriors are born, not made.

[Seth]

Pord

I can understand shooting at a target might be fun, since it is competitive and lots of people respond to competition in that way. I can understand how carrying a gun through the wilderness to hunt deer could be fun. I enjoy walking in the wilderness myself, though without the gun.

But how the hell can holding and pointing a tool for committing murder be fun, unless you are fantasizing the act?

Using a firearm for self defense is not "murder" nor is it "fun" nor do sane people "fantasize" about it. I carry a handgun for self defense because I am legally entitled to do so, and because the consequences of not doing so for myself, my family, and those around me are severe and/or fatal. Therefore, it is my moral duty and obligation to be armed for self defense. And however fervently I hope that I never have to discharge my weapon at or into another human being, I am prepared to do so without hesitation if I have legal justification and a need to do so.

Nobody but you (or some other insane person) would characterize that as "fun," and tactical planning and practice is not "fantasizing" about "committing murder" it's merely recognition of a valid threat and reasonable preparation to respond to such threats.

And take it from someone who has been carrying a gun for a quarter-century, it's not particularly "fun" it's a literal pain in the ass. It's easier not to carry one by far, and uncomfortable to do so much of the time. It requires constant attention to your weapons to be sure you're not "flashing" it and it hasn't somehow slipped out of the holster and is lying on the ground somewhere. And then there's the situational awareness mandate that keeps you on the watch for potential threats. You don't get to go get drunk with your buddies, you don't get to be careless with your gun, ever, and it's forever hanging up on doors and chairs and poking you in the kidney when you sit down.

Like wearing glasses or walking with crutches if you break your leg, It's not fun, it's necessary.

[Blind groper]

Let me make a point here.

I do not say emotions are wrong. Emotions have a real and valuable place in our lives. But I do think that any person who wishes to live by the principles of critical and rational thinking should be able to recognise what emotions motivate them. I am against intelligent and rational people being fooled by rationalisations. I think we should all strive to discern the world and ourselves in a clear cut and accurate way.

I also am motivated by emotion. However, I try to identify exactly what motivates me and adjust my behaviour accordingly. So if a motivating emotion is unworthy, I try to make suitable changes.

In light of this, I try to point out to gun lovers that their obsession with guns is motivated by emotion, and the emotion is the love of power. It is not something to do with defending your family or being ready to oppose a totalitarian government. Knowing yourself is said to be the first step to true wisdom.

To Seth, who is one who uses rationalisations for his behaviour more than most.

Self defense with hand guns is an illusion. The data out there shows that those who carry guns have an increased likelihood of being shot. There is other data showing that, having a hand gun at home, increases the likelihood of a child committing suicide by 3 to 5 times. When someone like Seth claims to carry a gun for self defense, he is fooling himself with a rationalisation, since the opposite happens, and his chances of himself or a family member suffering or dying is increased.

[Seth]

I miss the bronze age, when men were men. Nowadays, any punk with a finger and a gun can kill a man.

Not if the man also has a finger and a gun, and better tactical sense and skills.

[Jason]

Pord

I can understand shooting at a target might be fun, since it is competitive and lots of people respond to competition in that way. I can understand how carrying a gun through the wilderness to hunt deer could be fun. I enjoy walking in the wilderness myself, though without the gun.

But how the hell can holding and pointing a tool for committing murder be fun, unless you are fantasizing the act?

I assume because it is an exercise of skill on her part, or perhaps she simply appreciates the tactile feel of it, or perhaps she enjoys the smell of gun oil in the morning, or any of a huge number of reasons.

My point is that you're trying to argue from a general definition of 'good' derived from 'fun' to a very specific definition of 'good' derived from a feeling and/or fantasy of power. It simply doesn't hold water.

Now you're claiming a handgun is a tool 'for' murder. You're making the implicit assertion that there is no lawful or morally acceptable use for handguns and killing with your loaded statement.

[Blind groper]

Pord

A hand gun is a tool for murder because that is what is is designed for. A hand gun is a very poor weapon for hunting or killing vermin. It is designed to be a weapon that is portable, and concealable, and lethal at close range. The only targets for such a weapon are humans, and hence it is a tool for murder. There are still legal and moral uses for such a weapon, but not in the hands of civilians. Even self defense is better served with a rifle or shotgun, because they are more accurate.

As I said before, I am practical. I do not let my emotions affect my judgement. When I read people like Seth warbling on about how lethal his collection of automatic weapons are, it sickens me, but I do not let that affect my judgment. The data is very, very clear cut. Hand guns are the problem. Even Seth's vicious weapons are not the real problem. Hand guns kill 8,000 people each year through homicides and another 12,000 people every year in suicides. That is 20,000 deaths in total. In addition, there are another 20,000 cases approximately of hand gun inflicted wounds sufficient to result in hospital admissions. Many of these will leave permanent disabilities like being paraplegic.

So, yes, hand guns are a real problem in the USA. Thus, as a practical person, I focus my arguments on hand guns.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

I dreamed I was stripping and cleaning an FN FAL last night. - Strange really, because I actually grew to dislike this particular weapon.
I reckon I could still fully strip and reassemble one blindfolded after what must be about 30 years.

I feel that rigorous, compulsory training with periodic competence testing for gun owners would save lives. I don't see guns as the problem...amateurish dickheads with guns is the problem.

[Gallstones]

Groper, fun is emotion, necessary for a healthy state of mind.

Pord already touched on my feelings about guns--they are fun and I have a very genuine appreciation for the aesthetics of them and an interest in the science/the physics.

All this is good for me and my quality of life.
I'm not a criminal, I have no repressed drive to kill anyone.
I have had to kill non-humans before. I accepted it as necessary but didn't enjoy doing it. There were times when I get all existential and get caught up in agonizing over having to kill something. I leave spiders alone and save hornets and moths that get trapped in the house.

You are correct in one regard, I do get a thrill out of killing.............

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

mosquitoes and noxious weeds.

[Gallstones]

Handguns are not designed for murder.
Murder is an emotive and misleading term.