Catholic church at it again. This time Holland.

[Ronja]

When you say "the Catholic church" you are referring to approximately one billion individual, including some 400,000 of them who are priests. The Pope is not the church. The bishops are not the church. The priests, pedophile or not, are not the church. The Catholic church comprises everyone who chooses to adhere to the tenets of the group and claims membership.

It would appear that your interpretation is in the minority at least on this forum (the results are of course preliminary, but only one vote of 30 agrees with you ATM): http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33969

For me a "church" is the official organization, the paid or otherwise "kept" people (in this case priests, monks, nuns, bishops, cardinals, etc. all the way up to the pope). Members who do not get (most of) their living from the catholic church are "catholics" in my vocabulary.

If you genuinely thought that I (and others) meant that all catholics are somehow a part of this outrageous betrayal of trust, then I understand your reaction. But next time you feel like jumping down someone's throat because of what you think they are saying, maybe you could ask first if that was what they actually meant?

[Seth]

I disagree. That's exactly what they are saying when they use pejorative terms like "catlicker church" and they fail to distinguish between criminals IN the church and the church itself, which is not criminal in nature.

I'd have to disagree with the last part. Since in essence it is a confidence trick. That it predates our legislation should not stop us investigating and charging them as fraudsters, who franchised the operation to maintain power over people as an illegitimate authority.

Hm? How is the Catholic church an "illegitimate authority?" First, today it's entirely voluntary. Second, in the deep past (and I don't accept the Wayback Machine fallacy) it was a government as well as a church in some places and at some times. You might not like that form of government, but that's no different than objecting to Capitalism or Socialism. People choose to be members of the church, so the church's authority over them is not "illegitimate" in the least because they consent to it.

And what "fraud" has the church perpetrated? I suspect you believe that it's theistic claims constitute "fraud" but you'll have a damned tough time proving that in court, since you can't provide a shred of proof that what they claim is not the truth. You might think you can, but as I have pointed out, religious beliefs are a tricky thing when it comes to determining "truth." That's why the memes are so effective. And since association is voluntary these days, you'll not have much luck I'm afraid.

[amused]

I disagree. That's exactly what they are saying when they use pejorative terms like "catlicker church" and they fail to distinguish between criminals IN the church and the church itself, which is not criminal in nature.

I'd have to disagree with the last part. Since in essence it is a confidence trick. That it predates our legislation should not stop us investigating and charging them as fraudsters, who franchised the operation to maintain power over people as an illegitimate authority.

Well that would make a novel approach as a lawsuit.

"Your honor, the defendant promised the plaintiff eternal life if plaintiff followed a prescribed pattern of behavior. We can't tell if the contract was fulfilled, so plaintiff's heirs are suing for default."

[Seth]

When you say "the Catholic church" you are referring to approximately one billion individual, including some 400,000 of them who are priests. The Pope is not the church. The bishops are not the church. The priests, pedophile or not, are not the church. The Catholic church comprises everyone who chooses to adhere to the tenets of the group and claims membership.

It would appear that your interpretation is in the minority at least on this forum (the results are of course preliminary, but only one vote of 30 agrees with you ATM): http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33969

Interesting poll, but not really determinative of anything.

For me a "church" is the official organization, the paid or otherwise "kept" people (in this case priests, monks, nuns, bishops, cardinals, etc. all the way up to the pope). Members who do not get (most of) their living from the catholic church are "catholics" in my vocabulary.

That's fine, but it still remains a truth that only some 4000 or so of the 400,000 "paid or otherwise kept people" who comprise the church's clerical staff have been involved in child sexual abuse.

If you genuinely thought that I (and others) meant that all catholics are somehow a part of this outrageous betrayal of trust, then I understand your reaction. But next time you feel like jumping down someone's throat because of what you think they are saying, maybe you could ask first if that was what they actually meant?

I have a better idea: How about you use some more reason and rational thought in composing your posts so that you carefully identify precisely who it is that you are accusing of pedophilia. That's generally a good idea, since falsely accusing someone of pedophilia is actionable libel or slander in most parts of the world.

[Seth]

I disagree. That's exactly what they are saying when they use pejorative terms like "catlicker church" and they fail to distinguish between criminals IN the church and the church itself, which is not criminal in nature.

I'd have to disagree with the last part. Since in essence it is a confidence trick. That it predates our legislation should not stop us investigating and charging them as fraudsters, who franchised the operation to maintain power over people as an illegitimate authority.

Well that would make a novel approach as a lawsuit.

"Your honor, the defendant promised the plaintiff eternal life if plaintiff followed a prescribed pattern of behavior. We can't tell if the contract was fulfilled, so plaintiff's heirs are suing for default."

Well put.

"Counselor, this case is continued pending the submission of evidence of the failure of the defendant to provide eternal life. Hearing is rescheduled for eternity..."

[Ronja]

When you say "the Catholic church" you are referring to approximately one billion individual, including some 400,000 of them who are priests. The Pope is not the church. The bishops are not the church. The priests, pedophile or not, are not the church. The Catholic church comprises everyone who chooses to adhere to the tenets of the group and claims membership.

It would appear that your interpretation is in the minority at least on this forum (the results are of course preliminary, but only one vote of 30 agrees with you ATM): http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33969

Interesting poll, but not really determinative of anything.

If you find it that uninteresting how the people in this forum use and interpret words / concepts, then don't come with accusations, either, that someone is "insulting" you (or anyone else). If you don't even care to understand what people are talking about, you have no credibility to complain.


(just to be clear: this is my personal opinion, I'm not wearing my staff hat now)

[JimC]

For all the words, nothing new from Seth...

Let me repeat...

Your posts are a PR defence of an organisation that has condoned and enabled pedophilia. None of your rambling, empty words change that one iota.

[Seth]

For all the words, nothing new from Seth...

Let me repeat...

Your posts are a PR defence of an organisation that has condoned and enabled pedophilia. None of your rambling, empty words change that one iota.

More backpedaling, lies and obfuscation. The truth is that you claims are nothing more than mindless anti-Catholic hatred and bigotry from someone who will stop at nothing in publishing slanders and libels against good people who have nothing to do with pedophilia. That makes your posts a disgusting example of the worst of humanity, not something to be respected and admired.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

By now Seeth is getting desperate to defend an indefensible position, I imagine.

[Seth]

When you say "the Catholic church" you are referring to approximately one billion individual, including some 400,000 of them who are priests. The Pope is not the church. The bishops are not the church. The priests, pedophile or not, are not the church. The Catholic church comprises everyone who chooses to adhere to the tenets of the group and claims membership.

It would appear that your interpretation is in the minority at least on this forum (the results are of course preliminary, but only one vote of 30 agrees with you ATM): http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33969

Interesting poll, but not really determinative of anything.

If you find it that uninteresting how the people in this forum use and interpret words / concepts, then don't come with accusations, either, that someone is "insulting" you (or anyone else). If you don't even care to understand what people are talking about, you have no credibility to complain.

Sure I do. Just as much credibility as you have in creating conveniently situational definitions and interpretations so as to avoid having to actually engage in careful rhetorical construction of your arguments.

It's far easier to hurl feces at "the catlicker church" and splash a billion people with your shit, and then try to excuse that bad behavior by declaiming that you didn't mean THOSE members of the church when called to account for that libel than it is to take the time to carefully identify precisely whom is is that you are flinging feces at. It's typical intellectual dishonesty and laziness I see all the time from Catholic-bashing Atheists, but such behavior is not remotely connected to reason or rationality, it's actually indicative of juvenile intellects that don't have the skills, understanding or knowledge to do anything but hurl hatred at all and sundry without a thought to whether the opprobrium is deserved or not.

To the religiously-zealous Atheists, and there are several here, no expression of hatred, no vile accusation, no haughty expression of contempt, no debasement or insult is too much when it comes to attacking people of religion, including those who are peaceable, kind, friendly, loving and NOT involved or supportive of pederasty.

Your sort of vile, disgusting, antisocial attacks are just as loathsome and repugnant as those made by the worst of the worst of theistic zealots. You're right down there in the muck of religious zealotry with them, because your mindless hatred and perfidious pursuit of your own dogma is precisely and exactly a "religion" as defined in the dictionary, whether you try to deny it or not.

It's no wonder atheists are reviled, mistrusted and marginalized...they let their hatred of all things religious become a religion of hatred all its own, and they act as badly, or worse, than those whom they seek revile, and they have few redeeming social characteristics to balance out the prejudice and bigotry.

So, yes, I'll judge you, and excoriate you, and call you to account for your calumnies because somebody has to do it. The billion good and innocent people smeared with the shit of your false claims deserve that much at the very least.

[DaveD]

By now Seeth is getting desperate to defend an indefensible position, I imagine.

Yep.
I'll spare you the details though. You've already read them countless times.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

By now Seeth is getting desperate to defend an indefensible position, I imagine.

Yep.
I'll spare you the details though. You've already read them countless times.

One of the reasons he went on ignore, only the second person to do so.

[Seth]

By now Seeth is getting desperate to defend an indefensible position, I imagine.

What's indefensible about "The billion Catholics who are innocent of child sexual molestation do not deserve to be smeared unjustly with such accusations using guilt-by-association fallacies and false claims?"

By now you are desperately trying to shift the blame for shit-slinging from yourself to others to avoid the moral consequences of accusing a billion innocent people of crimes they did not commit.

You're not going to get away with it unchallenged.

[Robert_S]

So far, most of the mockery and disdain has been pointed at the institution and leaders of the CC. But perhaps it is time to take a look at how much negligence there has been on the part of the rank and file Catholics.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So far, most of the mockery and disdain has been pointed at the institution and leaders of the CC. But perhaps it is time to take a look at how much negligence there has been on the part of the rank and file Catholics.

A boy or girl is molested by the Church. They grow up, have kids, and surrender those children to the same system that abused them. They are facilitators.