Guns used for lawful self defense

[Seth]

Sword-wielding man fatally shot by campus cop
Posted: 11/10/2012 09:45:03 AM MST
Updated: 11/10/2012 09:45:05 AM MST
The Associated Press
DENVER—Authorities say a police officer was critically injured by a suspect who was wielding a sword on a college campus in downtown Denver.

Denver police spokeswoman Raquel Lopez says the officer shot and killed the suspect on the Auraria campus at about 6 a.m. Saturday, but not before one of the officer's fingers was almost severed during the confrontation.

The officer, whose name has not been released, was taken to a hospital in critical but stable condition.

The Denver Post reports ( http://bit.ly/PLYKgU) the male suspect's name has not been released.

Read more: Sword-wielding man fatally shot by campus cop - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/ci_21971504/s ... z2BwWYt6Hv
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

Imagine how many unarmed sheeple this nutbar could have chopped if the police hadn't shown up first...

[Blind groper]

Seth

Hand guns do not deter crime. They kill people. The hard data proves the latter, and the former is just a fond wish by those obsessed with tools for committing murder.

If you look at each and every western civilised nation apart from the USA, hand guns are rarities, and that lack does not cause high levels of crime. However, the one country with lots of hand guns has a murder rate four times as high as its peers.

If you take a look at robberies per country ( http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_r ... -robberies ) you will find that the United States is number 18 as worst country, out of 109 listed, and the vast majority of other countries have far fewer robberies. Belgium and Spain and Portugal are the only peer group nations worse than the USA. Canada is number 28. My country is 48. So much for America's hand guns stopping crime.

[Seth]

Seth

Hand guns do not deter crime. They kill people.

Yes they do. I've personally deterred a couple of crimes with my handgun. So have millions of others, mostly without shooting anyone. And yes, they do kill people, including criminals intent on killing innocent people, but they also deter people from killing others, as in the case just cited of the sword-wielding man in Denver.

The hard data proves the latter,

No it doesn't, you're lying about the "hard data" and are simply cherry-picking only that which supports your asinine claims.

and the former is just a fond wish by those obsessed with tools for committing murder.

Tell that to the cop with the severed finger, or any of the other examples posted here.

If you look at each and every western civilised nation apart from the USA, hand guns are rarities, and that lack does not cause high levels of crime.

Other things cause high levels of crime, but concealed handguns in the hands of law abiding citizens gives each one of them a chance to defend themselves if attacked, which is the only thing that matters.

However, the one country with lots of hand guns has a murder rate four times as high as its peers.

There you go with the cherry picking again. It's the LACK of handguns (or any other guns) in the hands of innocent citizens in Mexico that allows the drug cartels to massacre teenagers at a birthday party and tens of thousands of other innocents.

If you take a look at robberies per country ( http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_r ... -robberies ) you will find that the United States is number 18 as worst country, out of 109 listed, and the vast majority of other countries have far fewer robberies.

And then there's the UK...

Belgium and Spain and Portugal are the only peer group nations worse than the USA. Canada is number 28. My country is 48. So much for America's hand guns stopping crime.

False claim. Firearms, including handguns, prevent, deter or thwart up to two million crimes every year in the US. Without firearms, Americans would be much more vulnerable to criminal predation and the number of successful crimes would skyrocket. So much for your idiotic claim.

[Blind groper]

Seth

I have already explained, in detail, why your 2 million figure is so much crap.
If you depend on that as the quality of your "evidence", it is no wonder you keep talking bullshit.

Here is something from the female perspective.
http://www.vpc.org/studies/myth.htm

I quote :

"how often are handguns actually used by women to kill in self-defense? The answer, as revealed by unpublished Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) data, is hardly ever. Women were murdered with handguns more than 1,200 times in 1998 alone. As these numbers reveal, handguns don't offer protection for women, but instead guarantee peril.4

For all of the promises made on behalf of the self-defense handgun, using a handgun to kill in self-defense is a rare event.5 Looking at both men and women, over the past 20 years, on average only two percent of the homicides committed with handguns in the United States were deemed justifiable or self-defense homicides by civilians.6 To put it in perspective, more people are struck by lightning each year than use handguns to kill in self-defense."

And still more ...


"In 1998, for every time a woman used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 101 women were murdered with a handgun".

I would say that, from the female perspective, hand guns are an unmitigated disaster!

And what about the nonsense so often spouted that homicides of non criminals are carried out by criminals, and black ones at that?


"Of the 12 handgun self-defense killings by women reported to the FBI in 1998, eight involved attackers known to the woman, while only four involved strangers.

All the attackers that the women justifiably killed were males, as were an overwhelming number of offenders in female handgun homicides. For the majority of both justifiable and criminal homicides, both the shooter and the victim were of the same race."


The majority of people murdering women with a hand gun were white, and the smaller number of black guys who murdered women with a handgun, their victim was normally a black woman. Most such murders are carried out by a spouse, or by a person the woman knows. Not by an invading criminal. Makes the macho crap spouted by the gun nutters on this forum look a bit silly.

[Gallstones]

]Seth

I have already explained, in detail, why your 2 million figure is so much crap.
If you depend on that as the quality of your "evidence", it is no wonder you keep talking bullshit.

Here is something from the female perspective. http://www.vpc.org/studies/myth.htm

I quote :

"how often are handguns actually used by women to kill in self-defense? The answer, as revealed by unpublished Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) data, is hardly ever. Women were murdered with handguns more than 1,200 times in 1998 alone. As these numbers reveal, handguns don't offer protection for women, but instead guarantee peril.4

For all of the promises made on behalf of the self-defense handgun, using a handgun to kill in self-defense is a rare event.5 Looking at both men and women, over the past 20 years, on average only two percent of the homicides committed with handguns in the United States were deemed justifiable or self-defense homicides by civilians.6 To put it in perspective, more people are struck by lightning each year than use handguns to kill in self-defense."

And still more ...


"In 1998, for every time a woman used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 101 women were murdered with a handgun".

I would say that, from the female perspective, hand guns are an unmitigated disaster!

And what about the nonsense so often spouted that homicides of non criminals are carried out by criminals, and black ones at that?


"Of the 12 handgun self-defense killings by women reported to the FBI in 1998, eight involved attackers known to the woman, while only four involved strangers.

All the attackers that the women justifiably killed were males, as were an overwhelming number of offenders in female handgun homicides. For the majority of both justifiable and criminal homicides, both the shooter and the victim were of the same race."


The majority of people murdering women with a hand gun were white, and the smaller number of black guys who murdered women with a handgun, their victim was normally a black woman. Most such murders are carried out by a spouse, or by a person the woman knows. Not by an invading criminal. Makes the macho crap spouted by the gun nutters on this forum look a bit silly.

The inclusion of a single word invalidates the credibility of your source.

And, I'll not have my "female" perspective dismissed and condescended to as if I am a child who can't make an informed choice for myself.


So, do you think that because having to defend oneself is a rare event no one should have a handgun?
A reasonable person would be glad that having to defend oneself is a rare thing.

[Blind groper]

gallstones.

Emotional outbursts do not constitute argument.

[Gallstones]

You haven't even seen me outburst emotionally.

Being patronizing isn't an argument either--it's you conceding argument.

So about your source, its credibility and my question.

[Blind groper]

Gallstones

I am not interested in opinions. I prefer facts, especially in the form of hard numbers. My source is no more credible in terms of conclusions than any other source, but when they quote hard numbers, then take heed.

Like, for each woman who successfully kills her attacker with a hand gun, there are 101 women killed by attackers with hand guns. Defense is not exactly shown to be successful!

And never forget that, even though 8,000 people are murdered each year with hand guns, the total number who receive a bullet in their body from a fire arm is 100,000, which includes terrible wounds, like paraplegia. Ready availability of firearms, and especially hand guns, carries a massive human toll. American gun culture is a terrible thing.

[macdoc]

[Gallstones]

Gallstones

I am not interested in opinions. I prefer facts, especially in the form of hard numbers. My source is no more credible in terms of conclusions than any other source, but when they quote hard numbers, then take heed.

Like, for each woman who successfully kills her attacker with a hand gun, there are 101 women killed by attackers with hand guns. Defense is not exactly shown to be successful!

And never forget that, even though 8,000 people are murdered each year with hand guns, the total number who receive a bullet in their body from a fire arm is 100,000, which includes terrible wounds, like paraplegia. Ready availability of firearms, and especially hand guns, carries a massive human toll.

American gun culture is a terrible thing.

is an opinion.

You seem plenty interested in your own.

I'm not swayed by your feelings about our Second Amendment and my choice to exercise it.

I think this recent women and handgun tangent of yours is not being accruately presented. There is a reason that women are killed by handguns and it isn't the guns and it isn't because they are women. Fewer women are as interested in owning and being proficient in weapons than are men--generally--so generally more abusive, controlling, prone to violence as a solution type people who also use guns, will be men.

[Blind groper]

is an opinion.

You seem plenty interested in your own.

It is a conclusion, presented after showing a substantial amount of backing data.
Of course, you are not required to agree with my conclusions, and you clearly do not. However, the difference between you and I is that I use data and you do not.

[Gallstones]

You are arguing for your opinion that is based on your feelings.
Will you turn into a pumpkin again if you don't acknowledge that?

This entire debate is opinion vs opinion.

[Blind groper]

Gallstones

My thesis is two fold

1. Ready availability of hand guns causes a heap of human tragedy in the USA.
2. American gun culture is contributing to major problems in the USA.

Now, various people have tried to argue against things that are not part of that thesis. Red herring arguments. When we stick to the thesis, I offer up good data to support my position. You have consistently offered no more than unsupported opinion. When that happens, guess who wins the discussion?

[Gallstones]

Gallstones

My thesis is two fold

1. Ready availability of hand guns causes a heap of human tragedy in the USA.
2. American gun culture is contributing to major problems in the USA.

Now, various people have tried to argue against things that are not part of that thesis. Red herring arguments. When we stick to the thesis, I offer up good data to support my position. You have consistently offered no more than unsupported opinion. When that happens, guess who wins the discussion?

I know what your thesis is.
I get it--I don't care.

You have a thesis, so what?

Winning the discussion?
Celebrate. I'll still have my guns.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Also, when did 20K become the majority?

20,000 is the majority of violent deaths in the USA by suicide and homicide.

Most reasonable people would consider a substantial reduction in both homicide and suicide as eminently desirable.

Some of them are, indeed, regrettable. Some.