AmeriKKKa

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:25 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:51 pm
White in all the wrong places: white rural poverty in the postbellum US South
Many analyses of whiteness assume a priori that a white identity intimates unproblematic claims to white privilege. As Henry Giroux has noted, however, the reduction of whiteness ‘exclusively to forms of exploitation and domination’ fails ‘to capture the complexity that marks ‘whiteness’ as a form of identity and cultural practice’. While connections between whiteness and domination can certainly be powerful, simply being white does not automatically bring social, economic or any other form of privilege, as whiteness never functions in solitude.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.119 ... 003eu266oa

--it's interesting to see what money thought of poor whites at the time (and still does :dunno:)
If you say that half the men and nearly all the women are very pale, you strike at the matter, but
fail to fairly hit it . . . Unquestionably soap and water and crash towels would improve the
appearance, but I doubt if they would give any bloom to the cheek. The skin seems utterly
without vitality, and beyond the action of any restorative stimulants: it has a pitiful and repulsive
death-in-life appearance . . . The whole economy of life seems radically wrong, and there is no
inherent energy which promises reformation.
Although ‘[t]ime and effort will lead the negro up to intelligent
manhood’, he doubted ‘if they will be able to lead this ‘white trash’ even up to
respectability’. African Americans, for Andrews and others, had the potential to rise to
‘intelligent manhood’. White trash, conversely, was forever stuck somewhere beneath
respectability.
Of course. There seems to be a common misconception out there that all white Southerners were a bunch of slaveowners. This isn't true. Rich planter families would own hundreds of slaves, while most Southern whites were dirt poor. Poorer whites could rent slaves from the rich ones when they needed back-breaking labor done, but most had no hope of owning their own.

In my post prior to this one I quote WEB Du Bois where he explains how racism kept the oligarchs and the poor whites on the same side politically and in favor of the slavery regime.

eta: I'll just repost it because it got knocked off the page and it's a good couple of paragraphs:
The political success of the doctrine of racial separation, which overthrew reconstruction by uniting the planter and the poor white, was far exceeded by its astonishing economic results. The theory of laboring class unity rests upon the assumption that laborers, despite internal jealousies, will unite because of their opposition to exploitation by the capitalists. According to this, even after a part of the poor, white laboring class became identified with the planters, and eventually displaced them, their interests would be diametrically opposed to those of the mass of white labor, and of course, to those of black laborers. This would throw white and black labor into one class and precipitate a united fight for higher wage and better working conditions. Most persons do not realize how far this failed to work in the South, and it failed to work because the theory of race was supplemented by a carefully planned and slowly evolved method which drove such a wedge between the white and black workers that there are probably not today in the world two groups of workers with practically identical interests who hate and fear each other so deeply and persistently, and who are kept so far apart that neither sees anything of common interest.

It must be remembered that the white group of laborers, while they received a low wage, were compensated in part by a sort of public and psychological wage. They were given public deference and titles of courtesy because they were white. They were admitted freely with all classes of white people to public functions, public parks, and the best schools. The police were drawn from their ranks, and the courts, dependent upon their votes, treated them with such leniency as to encourage lawlessness. Their votes selected public officials, and while this had small effect upon the economic situation, it had great effect upon their personal treatment and the deference shown them. White schoolhouses were the best in the community and conspicuously placed, and they cost anywhere from twice to ten times as much per capita as the colored schools. The newspapers specialized on news that flattered the poor whites, and almost utterly ignored the negro except in crime and ridicule. On the other hand, in the same way, the negro was subject to public insult, was afraid of mobs, was liable to the jibes of children, and the unreasoning fears of white women, and was compelled almost continuously to submit to various badges of inferiority. The result of both of this was that the wages of both classes could be kept low—the whites fearing to be supplanted by negro labor, the negroes always being threatened by the substitution of white labor. Mob violence and lynching were the inevitable result of the attitude of these two classes, and for a time were a sort of permissible Roman holiday for the entertainment of vicious whites. One can see for these reasons why labor organizers and labor agitators made such small headway in the South. They were for the most part appealing to laborers who would rather have low wages upon which they could eke out an existence, than see colored labor with a decent wage. White labor saw in every advance of negroes a threat to their racial prerogatives, so that in many districts, negroes were afraid to build decent homes, or dress well, or own carriages, bicycles, or automobiles because of possible retaliation on the part of the whites. Thus every problem of labor advance in the South was skillfully turned by demagogues into a matter of interacial jealousy.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:59 am

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1191/1474474003eu266oa wrote:White poverty, as I will show, challenges the myth of universal white privilege, revealing in no uncertain terms that implicit connections between colour and class do not always hold.
Man, what is this nonsense? Is this going to be another torching of a strawman? No one thinks that all white people live like kings and all black people are paupers. This is cartoonish. All that is meant when people talk about white privilege is the fact that black people—on top of having to deal with all the bullshit white people have to deal with—ALSO have to deal the bullshit that comes with being black. Which is a fucking lot in the US because of all the racism.
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"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:09 am

What about the concept of male privilege, Sean? Do you have a problem with that?

I don't because I know damn well that women have to deal with all manner of bullshit that I don't, even just walking down the street. They're more likely to get raped, more likely to get murdered by their spouse, less likely to be hired, less likely to get a raise, less likely to get a promotion, etc.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:22 am

I may take issue with how it is used. I can't say before encountering something I object to. :dunno:
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:26 am

Seabass wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:59 am
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1191/1474474003eu266oa wrote:White poverty, as I will show, challenges the myth of universal white privilege, revealing in no uncertain terms that implicit connections between colour and class do not always hold.
Man, what is this nonsense? Is this going to be another torching of a strawman? No one thinks that all white people live like kings and all black people are paupers. This is cartoonish. All that is meant when people talk about white privilege is the fact that black people—on top of having to deal with all the bullshit white people have to deal with—ALSO have to deal the bullshit that comes with being black. Which is a fucking lot in the US because of all the racism.
It's an interesting read. I think you've misunderstood her if that's what you came away with.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by JimC » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:18 am

I confess my privilege of having a science education, which unfairly allows me to understand stuff that uneducated religious morons cannot... :tea:
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:38 am

Seabass wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:59 am
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1191/1474474003eu266oa wrote:White poverty, as I will show, challenges the myth of universal white privilege, revealing in no uncertain terms that implicit connections between colour and class do not always hold.
Man, what is this nonsense? Is this going to be another torching of a strawman? No one thinks that all white people live like kings and all black people are paupers. This is cartoonish. All that is meant when people talk about white privilege is the fact that black people—on top of having to deal with all the bullshit white people have to deal with—ALSO have to deal the bullshit that comes with being black. Which is a fucking lot in the US because of all the racism.
Well, it wasn't terrible, but she keeps misusing the term "white privilege". It has never, ever, EVER meant that all white people live on easy street. As if there are people out there who think all white people live in mansions. Why is this so difficult??
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:41 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:22 am
I may take issue with how it is used. I can't say before encountering something I object to. :dunno:
I'm asking you if you have a problem with the concept of it.
Special privileges and status are granted to males in patriarchal societies.[1][2] These are societies defined by male supremacy, in which males hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property. With systemic subordination of women, males gain economic, political, social, educational, and practical advantages that are more or less unavailable to women.[2] The long-standing and unquestioned nature of such patriarchal systems, reinforced over generations, tends to make privilege invisible to holders; it can lead males who benefit from such privilege to ascribe their special status to their own individual merits and achievements, rather than to unearned advantages.[1]

In the field of sociology, male privilege is seen as embedded in the structure of social institutions, as when men are often assigned authority over women in the workforce, and benefit from women's traditional caretaking role.[3] Privileges can be classified as either positive or negative, depending on how they affect the rest of society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:23 am

Seabass wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:59 am
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1191/1474474003eu266oa wrote:White poverty, as I will show, challenges the myth of universal white privilege, revealing in no uncertain terms that implicit connections between colour and class do not always hold.
Man, what is this nonsense? Is this going to be another torching of a strawman? No one thinks that all white people live like kings and all black people are paupers. This is cartoonish. All that is meant when people talk about white privilege is the fact that black people—on top of having to deal with all the bullshit white people have to deal with—ALSO have to deal the bullshit that comes with being black. Which is a fucking lot in the US because of all the racism.
Well, it wasn't terrible, but she keeps misusing the term "white privilege". It has never, ever, EVER meant that all white people live on easy street. As if there are people out there who think all white people live in mansions. Why is this so difficult??
And yet those who ideologically object to the term 'white privilege' decry it for meaning exactly that. I think this idea, that the progressively-mind are claiming that all white people enjoy a life free from hardship when they use the term, is what she's arguing against.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:07 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:23 am
And yet those who ideologically object to the term 'white privilege' decry it for meaning exactly that.
But it doesn't mean that, so they should consult a dictionary.
Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:23 am
I think this idea, that the progressively-mind are claiming that all white people enjoy a life free from hardship when they use the term, is what she's arguing against.
I don't think so.

For example she says this:
While connections between whiteness and domination can certainly be powerful, simply being white does not automatically bring social, economic or any other form of privilege, as whiteness never functions in solitude.
She's straight up saying that being white does not automatically bring privilege. The thing is, it does.

Here's the definition of 'privilege':
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.
Now consider how racist this country is. Going by statistics that I've seen, somewhere around oh 30-40% of Americans think black people are inherently lazy and violent. This means that any time a black person interacts with a stranger, there is a 30-40% chance that they will be dealing with someone who thinks less of them because of the color of their skin. This is something to which all, literally ALL white people have immunity. 100% of white people have this immunity, 100% of them have it automatically, 0% of them earned it, and 0% of them deserve it.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:16 pm

Great, so when hillbilly wins the lotto and moves to a more diverse community he can be reasonably sure that some percentage of whites will enjoy having him as a neighbor more than others.

Now, perhaps you can explain what that's got to do with the claim you take issue with. She and others make it clear that the effects of white privilege are dependent on multiple factors so that one does not automatically enjoy the benefits socially, or economically etc.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:03 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:16 pm
Great, so when hillbilly wins the lotto and moves to a more diverse community he can be reasonably sure that some percentage of whites will enjoy having him as a neighbor more than others.

Now, perhaps you can explain what that's got to do with the claim you take issue with. She and others make it clear that the effects of white privilege are dependent on multiple factors so that one does not automatically enjoy the benefits socially, or economically etc.
No, she did not make that clear. The only way a white person manages not to benefit from the immunity bestowed by whiteness is if they somehow manage to live their entire life without ever encountering a racist person. What are the odds of that happening in the US? Like 0%, basically.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:16 pm

In addition to the emphasis on invisibility and privilege, a more promising recent trend in research on white racial identity is a focus on whiteness as a situated identity, not as an identity of uniform privilege but as a complex social identity whose meaning is impacted by the particular context in which white actors are located. Poor (Buck 2001), gay (Berube 2001), or otherwise marginalized whites are likely to have a different experience of their privileged racial identity than are others able to see the direct payoff of white skin privilege (Rasmussen et al. 2001). This trend toward considering whiteness as increasingly complex is reflected in the work of one of the first social scientists to write specifically about whiteness as invisible privilege, Ruth Frankenberg (2001), who urges a shift in thinking about white racial identity as more complex than she or others had previously considered. Specifically, she notes that current "conditions and practice of whiteness" render "the notion that whiteness might be invisible...bizarre in the extreme" (p. 76). Especially as whites become more rather than less likely to have interracial contact, the conditions of whiteness are increasingly explicit. Given the close association between whiteness and socioeconomic privilege, poor and working-class whites are especially likely to be aware of their whiteness as well as to have a complex understanding of what it means to be white in the United States today. For example, Hartigan (1999) finds that poor whites living among blacks in Detroit are more likely to be aware of racial identity as well as to have alternating experiences of shame and pride. While the affluent white gentrifiers Hartigan studies resemble the whites described by the literature on whiteness as privilege, the poverty of the Hillbilly whites across town renders a one-to-one correspondence between whiteness and privilege virtually impossible. In contrast Royster (2003) details the direct yet unseen benefits of whiteness among working-class men, who receive advantages in employment specifically because of the social networks to which their whiteness gives them privileged access.

The complex and situated character of whiteness is also highlighted among the multiracial population, where switching between white and nonwhite identities is not uncommon (Rockquemore & Brunsma 2002), Storrs (1999) finds that young biracial women in the Northwest are actually more likely to distance themselves from whiteness, instead opting for the more meaningful nonwhite identity. However, identifying as white can grant a psychological sense of superiority to those who are nonblack (Warren & Twine 1997)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/29737719

--emphasis mine
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:31 pm

Sean, have you ever read any non-fiction from black authors about the black experience in America? James Baldwin, Ida B. Wells, Frederick Douglass? Did you read that chapter I posted, "Racism drained the pool"?

If you're going to go full on anti-racist activist, why not do it on behalf of black people instead of white people? White people don't need your help. Black people do.

Centuries of inhuman, monstrous anti-black racism in this country, from slavery, to Jim Crow, to segregation, to black codes, to lynching, to flaying, to redlining, to voter suppression... and you're out here defending white people. Why?
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:46 pm

I defend people. That I have an interest in generating an authentic sense of whiteness is not a fault. I think you should worry more about finding the work of people actually involved in solving racism so unpalatable.

--//--

I remember when Kayne West stupidly called the slaves weak for not overcoming. At the time I posted what I think is a strong counter:
The other was Lethe. She was of an entirely different character. She had long, straight hair, and bore more the appearance of an Indian than a negro woman. She had sharp and spiteful eyes, and continually gave utterance to the language of hatred and revenge. Her husband had been sold. She knew not where she was. An exchange of masters, she was sure, could not be for the worse. She cared not whither they might carry her. Pointing to the scars upon her face, the desperate creature wished that she might see the day when she could wipe them off in some man's blood!

Twelve Years a Slave
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