Hurricane Harvey

[Scot Dutchy]

And, as Scot is already said, better land-use management can reduce the problem as well.

But that requires government planning and regulation; anathema in Trump's America...

It needs a central plan. Build a computer water model of the whole area to start off with. We build here to the 1 in 10,000 year event. It maybe slightly over extreme but the economic damage from flooding is enormous as Houston is about to find out. The cost of new infrastructure alone will be massive.
These type of floods will be increasing and being prepared is a requirement.

[Hermit]

And, as Scot is already said, better land-use management can reduce the problem as well.

But that requires government planning and regulation; anathema in Trump's America...

It needs a central plan. Build a computer water model of the whole area to start off with. We build here to the 1 in 10,000 year event. It maybe slightly over extreme but the economic damage from flooding is enormous as Houston is about to find out. The cost of new infrastructure alone will be massive.
These type of floods will be increasing and being prepared is a requirement.

It's not just Trump. Just after hurricane Katrina I read an interesting article about why effective solutions are fated to remain on the drawing board. Unfortunately I can't find it now, but in a nutshell the reason is that the USA is infested with too many libertarians. Remedial measures would cost billions of dollars for the New Orleans area alone. It's not something that can be done on a local level. It requires a level of government control individualists will not tolerate. They are firmly of the "As you make your bed so you lie in it" doctrine, as applied to each individual. So, proudly libertarian troglodytes dig a French drain along the side of the house. Solves their problem. This time around anyway. Never mind the neighbour. Or what waits for them next year or in ten years' time. Apparently another doctrine, "United we stand, divided we fall." only applies when the question is put to them "Should we bomb the living daylights out of [insert name of faraway country here]?" Then big government and trillion dollar expenses are not an obstacle.

Fucking idiots.

[mistermack]

They need to leave it to the market. That's the American way.
Have a totally free insurance market, and don't subsidise flood works with federal taxes.

The free market will either attract or deter people from living in flood prone places.
If you can't get insurance, people will invest their own money to raise their homes. Or do whatever works for them.
If you can't get flood insurance for your car, you will find somewhere safe to leave it, if a really bad storm threatens. Or make a fucking raft for it.
If you have insurance, why bother?

[Scot Dutchy]

This is the problem while great community spirit has been shown rescuing the people the community will not take responsibility for planning and rebuilding. As you say it is left to the individual looking after himself which he cant do. It needs a master plan but the idea of paying for some else's defence is an anathema for many Americans.
Here the government gave the responsibility to a government agency to maintain the flood defences and we have an awful lot of them. I know we are a small country but the principles we use are easily replicated anywhere else. It is not cheap but what options do you have? I pay €450 a year in levy for flood protection. The whole country pays it even they areas that are not affected. It is based on the value of your house. I cant see the Americans doing that.

[Scot Dutchy]

They need to leave it to the market. That's the American way.
Have a totally free insurance market, and don't subsidise flood works with federal taxes.

The free market will either attract or deter people from living in flood prone places.
If you can't get insurance, people will invest their own money to raise their homes. Or do whatever works for them.
If you can't get flood insurance for your car, you will find somewhere safe to leave it, if a really bad storm threatens. Or make a fucking raft for it.
If you have insurance, why bother?

Another load of bollocks. What happens if the insurance wont insure you? So you are going to be flooded every year and claim on your insurance and never mind the damage and destruction? Well good luck with that and stay on your side of the pond will you.

[Hermit]

It needs a master plan but the idea of paying for some else's defence is an anathema for many Americans.

Of course it's anathema. "Master plan" explicitly involves a master, and if the owner of 1001 Myplace Close, Sinking, Florida, USA, to pick any of a number of libertarians as an example, is not that master, there will be no master plan. Let the other family's property at 1003 Myplace Close, Sinking, Florida, USA, sink into oblivion. Libertarianism rules.

[Scot Dutchy]

So MM wins? Well they will just have move their cities onto high ground.

[pErvinalia]

This is the problem while great community spirit has been shown rescuing the people the community will not take responsibility for planning and rebuilding.

Yep. I actually get a bit turned off by all the gloating that goes on after a disaster just because the locals all joined together for once and actually did something to help people. And I speak from first hand experience after being part of the famous (at least in Straya) 'mud army' who helped clean up after the devastating Brisbane floods in 2011. To be fair, Brisbane is a pretty friendly city for its size. So it's not a exactly a shock that the community would band together like that. But it just gets on my goat that most of the time most people don't really give a fuck about people in need, and it takes a disaster level event to make people even start to think about someone other than themselves and their family/friends.

[pErvinalia]

So MM wins? Well they will just have move their cities onto high ground.

They've got a plan. And it's flood proof!

[laklak]

So, proudly libertarian troglodytes dig a French drain along the side of the house. Solves their problem. This time around anyway. Never mind the neighbour. Or what waits for them next year or in ten years' time. Apparently another doctrine, "United we stand, divided we fall." only applies when the question is put to them "Should we bomb the living daylights out of [insert name of faraway country here]?" Then big government and trillion dollar expenses are not an obstacle.

Fucking idiots.

I know, what a bunch of maroons, eh? Imagine being stupid and backwards enough to spend money to maintain your own property. What they should have done is vote for Hillary, and when the shit was ankle deep in the garage just give her a call. She'd airlift in SWAT (Shit Water Action Team), who would rappel from the Black Helos and fix it with OPM (Other People's Money).

[pErvinalia]

Don't start the OPM canard again! I've been enjoying not hearing about it since Seth has been taking an extended holiday..

[Scot Dutchy]

So MM wins? Well they will just have move their cities onto high ground.

They've got a plan. And it's flood proof!

We have those already. Just saying.

[Hermit]

So, proudly libertarian troglodytes dig a French drain along the side of the house. Solves their problem. This time around anyway. Never mind the neighbour. Or what waits for them next year or in ten years' time. Apparently another doctrine, "United we stand, divided we fall." only applies when the question is put to them "Should we bomb the living daylights out of [insert name of faraway country here]?" Then big government and trillion dollar expenses are not an obstacle.

Fucking idiots.

I know, what a bunch of maroons, eh? Imagine being stupid and backwards enough to spend money to maintain your own property. What they should have done is vote for Hillary, and when the shit was ankle deep in the garage just give her a call. She'd airlift in SWAT (Shit Water Action Team), who would rappel from the Black Helos and fix it with OPM (Other People's Money).

Strawman alert.

I was arguing that the USA, being infested with libertarians up to its gunwales, is incapable of doing what is necessary to fundamentally attack the flooding problem because that would involve "big government". The Clintons and Obamas are only a little less libertarian than the Bushes and Reagans. All of them are limited in what they can do by the individualist mindset of the population they are presiding over.

You fixed a micro-problem - for now and for yourself alone. Ten million property owners digging ten million French drains along the side of the houses will not do it. Loisianna, Florida and Texas need a polder system on a larger scale than that of the Dutch to fix the macro problem. Yes, that requires the use of tax money, and a fuckton of it, though perhaps not as much as the 600 billion bucks of your taxes that go into building aircraft carriers and such every fucking year. But by all means don't worry about the big picture if your own happiness and safety is all you care about. At least your mindset fits in with that of most of the rest of your society. Good luck.

[laklak]

Yeah, well, here's the Netherlands superimposed on the U.S.

netherlands.png (26.08 KiB) Viewed 3123 times

[Sean Hayden]

This is the problem while great community spirit has been shown rescuing the people the community will not take responsibility for planning and rebuilding.

Yep. I actually get a bit turned off by all the gloating that goes on after a disaster just because the locals all joined together for once and actually did something to help people. And I speak from first hand experience after being part of the famous (at least in Straya) 'mud army' who helped clean up after the devastating Brisbane floods in 2011. To be fair, Brisbane is a pretty friendly city for its size. So it's not a exactly a shock that the community would band together like that. But it just gets on my goat that most of the time most people don't really give a fuck about people in need, and it takes a disaster level event to make people even start to think about someone other than themselves and their family/friends.

I hear ya. But I think we're mostly wrong. I mean our feelings are mostly wrong. The reality is that plenty of people are helping 24/7, and not just during a disaster. Who runs all these food programs, shelters (of all kinds), rehabs, child advocates, women's health etc. We'd find it very hard to take any family at random that doesn't have members doing some or many of these things. They are all around us.

Maybe it's just the constant fight to justify government spending on safety nets that makes it feel like nobody cares or is helping. But isn't that fight really just between most of us, and the few?