Brilliant NHS

[ronmcd]

Right. You are forced by the government to pay for other people's health care, generally the sickest 15% of the population. There are many reasons that socialized medicine is bad and cannot provide what it promises in the long run, but the most fundamental question of all is what is the logical, rational argument supporting the idea that ANYONE should be forced to pay for anyone else's medical care against their will. We all understand how great those who benefit from NHS think it is because THEY don't get a bill for the services, but the bill gets paid no matter what, by other people who may object, as I do, to paying for some layabout obese person's medical care when they have no connection with or responsibility for that person or that person's health.

And that is your misconception, right there. I'm not paying for someone elses health care, I'm paying for my own. And when everyone contributes, you have a system that works. When enough people pull out of the system - an increasing danger with out waning acceptance of universalism here in UK - you end up with your attitude, from those who have the means to pay for their own services, objecting to paying as they see it for others. But you wouldnt be, if everyone were contributing. You'd be paying for your own, but would be protected during those periods where you couldnt pay.

With healthcare, more than most areas of society, universalism is jealously protected here in UK. You don't like it, fine. But our cultural acceptance and support for healthcare free at the point of need is just that, cultural. Your apparent visceral disgust with all the ill people (who must be fat unhealthy wasters, rather than unlucky) must be cultural too, I assume. I've seen it on Fox news as well, and by a small minority of people in UK too. Wealthy tories, naturally.

[Seth]

You pay a shitload more for private insurance in the States than I do. And you are not covered as well as I am.

I see, so it's all about YOU and what YOU want, right?

Seth is supporting a worse system just because he is a misogynistic individual, afraid that a needy person might benefit by his contribution and Seth would not get a say in the matter. He wants to hold people for hostage, lording over them. A puerile dream. Mature people share, immature people are selfish.

Shame on you, yet another resort to personal attack rather than reason. I've reported it since I'm not supposed to deal with fuckwits as they deserve to be dealt with.

Do you understand the concept of "sharing" even a little?

Government force used to coerce the involuntary transfer of labor or property is not "sharing." It's force and theft and nothing else.

"Sharing" means at it's core an "equitable or equal division" among individuals. But the first component of any kind of sharing is an implicit or voluntarily created possessory interest in the thing to be shared or divided equitably among the individuals.

When someone claims, then seizes without the permission of the true owners possession of something they have no legitimate possessory interest in it's defined as "theft." If, on the other hand, the true owners of the property (or labor) agree voluntarily to divide up ownership with others and create a possessory interest, then that is not theft. It's variously known as "altruism," "charity," "compassion," "rational self-interest," or "economic advantage," all of which are manifestations of "sharing" in that the receiver either has or is granted some possessory interest in the thing shared.

So, what possessory interest does the obese, chain-smoking alcoholic diabetes-ridden, nephrotic twinkie-eating welfare mom have in MY labor or property that would grant her the right to claim a "share" of it? How did my labor and property become subject to her claim? And please don't resort to the fallacious "'cause gummint says so" appeal to common practice. Try to use reason to explain the moral and ethical underpinnings and foundations of this purported duty of labor and property that must be "shared" with others a the muzzle of a machine gun.

[Seth]

Right. You are forced by the government to pay for other people's health care, generally the sickest 15% of the population. There are many reasons that socialized medicine is bad and cannot provide what it promises in the long run, but the most fundamental question of all is what is the logical, rational argument supporting the idea that ANYONE should be forced to pay for anyone else's medical care against their will. We all understand how great those who benefit from NHS think it is because THEY don't get a bill for the services, but the bill gets paid no matter what, by other people who may object, as I do, to paying for some layabout obese person's medical care when they have no connection with or responsibility for that person or that person's health.

And that is your misconception, right there. I'm not paying for someone elses health care, I'm paying for my own.

Really? So you can go down to the NHS and demand that they give you back any amounts you've paid in that you did not expend in a given year?

I don't think so. Nor can you say down the road "You must pay for this procedure because that's what I paid for all these years" when some government bureaucrat decides that your cancer is too expensive to treat and sends you home to die. That's because you ARE NOT paying for your own health care, you are paying for everyone else's on the promise that they will pay for yours when you need it. But unfortunately for you the nature of government is that it is immune to claims of fraud should it, in it's sovereign democratic wisdom, decide that when you need your care, there isn't enough money or services available to give it to you, or that your condition is too expensive to justify the treatment.

You're just completely fucked in that case.

So no, you are NOT paying for your care. Sorry, but that's the hard economic truth.

And when everyone contributes, you have a system that works. When enough people pull out of the system - an increasing danger with out waning acceptance of universalism here in UK - you end up with your attitude, from those who have the means to pay for their own services, objecting to paying as they see it for others. But you wouldnt be, if everyone were contributing. You'd be paying for your own, but would be protected during those periods where you couldnt pay.

With healthcare, more than most areas of society, universalism is jealously protected here in UK. You don't like it, fine. But our cultural acceptance and support for healthcare free at the point of need is just that, cultural. Your apparent visceral disgust with all the ill people (who must be fat unhealthy wasters, rather than unlucky) must be cultural too, I assume. I've seen it on Fox news as well, and by a small minority of people in UK too. Wealthy tories, naturally.

My viceral disgust is with Marxist fuckwits who think that health care is "free" and that they are entitled to enslave others to their needs and service just because they can. My disgust is with the absolute unwillingness or incapacity to even attempt to rationally justify the use of government force to extract labor and property from people against their will.

I use particularly egregious examples of proletarian dependent-class sloth and unconcern simply as an example to make my point clearly.

You once again resort to the fallacy of appeal to common practice; "we Brits do it because we do it" is the sum of your argument. But that's not an argument at all, it's an evasion of the core issues involved. Why can you not actually address those core principles and justify your dogmatic and religious beliefs?

[Clinton Huxley]

Extremists who hold the NHS up as some shining example versus extremists who claim it's a disaster.

Entertaining stuff. No wonder people don't pay attention to those of us in the middle.

Ain't you a Lib-Dem? It's no wonder people don't pay attention to you. Who cares what the Lib-Dems think?

[Rum]

What utter rubbish.

You were right of course about getting treatment in pretty well any accident and emergency unit. That applies to much of the world and is as much about the medical ethic as anything. However given the profit 'ethic' that runs most of American medicine we aren't surprised to see that those who suffer long term chronic health problems are more or less simply dumped on the trash unless they have really expensive insurance or lots of cash in your wonder country.

And you have yet to even try to justify why I should be compelled to pay for the medical care of a 40 year old morbidly-obese chain-smoking, hard-drinking welfare mother with diabetes, lunge cancer, colitis, nephritis and bad circulation.

-snipped-

[/quote]
There isn't any point. You are not going to change your ultra right view. My view is a moderate one and widespread amongst civilised populations. It concerns my willingness to pay a bond into the social coffers which I may need to call on, but am willing to contribute if I don't. That isn't about making judgements about individuals. I could quite as easily object to you doing strenuous exercise and risking a heart attack or breaking a leg and by your argument why should my insurance pay for that?

[Seth]

There isn't any point.

Of course there's a point, and you know it. You are just afraid of having that Marxist edifice you worship before pulled down around your ears by reason and logic.

You are not going to change your ultra right view.

I don't have an "ultra right" view, I have a libertarian view which is as "liberal" as it actually gets...when one doesn't deliberately distort the meaning of the word.

My view is a moderate one and widespread amongst civilised populations.

Fallacious appeal to common practice.

It concerns my willingness to pay a bond into the social coffers which I may need to call on, but am willing to contribute if I don't.

You're willing? Then I have no problem with you paying into the social coffers. But how do you justify sending the minions of government to enslave ME and force ME to pay into the social coffers which I NEVER intend to call on?

That isn't about making judgements about individuals.

And therein lies the most fundamental failure of socialism.

I could quite as easily object to you doing strenuous exercise and risking a heart attack or breaking a leg and by your argument why should my insurance pay for that?

It shouldn't. Nor would I ask or expect it to. That's the point. If I break my leg I'll pay the bill. But I refuse to allow you, through your minions in government, to control my life or liberty in order to lower YOUR risk of having to pay for my medical care. I'd rather die than be either enslaved to your service (medical needs) or have the government tell me what I can and cannot do by way of taking risks with MY life and property.

You take care of your medical needs and I'll take care of mine. That's eminently fair.

[mistermack]

Of course, this thread is about the NHS, not Seth's loony libertarian beliefs, no matter how amusing they are.

I was in hospital myself yesterday, for an MRI scan. Black Holes almighty, those things are intimidating.
It's like being inside the sump of the engine of a cross-channel ferry. You can't feel anything, but the noise is unbelieveable.

The place was spotless, the staff were extemely efficient and nice, and the hospital had a good atmosphere.
And money wasn't mentioned, except to empty my pockets of everything that might have metal in it.

So the " stopped clock " was telling the exact right time again. Maybe it's going after all? It's certainly telling the right time, every time I look.

[MrJonno]

And money wasn't mentioned, except to empty my pockets of everything that might have metal in it.

Car parking isn't cheap and there is the price of coffee at hospitals these days. Then again do in patients get it free ?

[Rum]

Of course, this thread is about the NHS, not Seth's loony libertarian beliefs, no matter how amusing they are.

I was in hospital myself yesterday, for an MRI scan. Black Holes almighty, those things are intimidating.
It's like being inside the sump of the engine of a cross-channel ferry. You can't feel anything, but the noise is unbelieveable.

The place was spotless, the staff were extemely efficient and nice, and the hospital had a good atmosphere.
And money wasn't mentioned, except to empty my pockets of everything that might have metal in it.

So the " stopped clock " was telling the exact right time again. Maybe it's going after all? It's certainly telling the right time, every time I look.

Glad it went OK - and hope all is well with you!

[MrJonno]

Basically if a drug or technique is too expensive for the NHS no one will bother developing it in the first place, there simply isn't enough of a market for medical care for multi-millionaires . Does anyone seriously think a drug company would bother coming up with a cure for AIDS if the injection cost $5 million. Artificial hearts will only be built if universal healthcare services can afford them, if they are out of reach of the majority no one will bother developing them

[mistermack]

Basically if a drug or technique is too expensive for the NHS no one will bother developing it in the first place, there simply isn't enough of a market for medical care for multi-millionaires . Does anyone seriously think a drug company would bother coming up with a cure for AIDS if the injection cost $5 million. Artificial hearts will only be built if universal healthcare services can afford them, if they are out of reach of the majority no one will bother developing them

Very good point. Without an NHS or a high rate of insurance coverage, the progress would be pretty limited, and even millionaires would be worse off. Car parking could be cheaper, but It's not really a health issue. There are more car parks in the vicinity, I don't know which is cheaper.

Thanks Rum. The scan was " precautionary ", and hopefully, a waste of time. But I won't know for a while.

[Strontium Dog]

Extremists who hold the NHS up as some shining example versus extremists who claim it's a disaster.

Entertaining stuff. No wonder people don't pay attention to those of us in the middle.

Ain't you a Lib-Dem? It's no wonder people don't pay attention to you. Who cares what the Lib-Dems think?

More people than give a shit what you think. At least I'm a real person, not some Internet caricature, tally ho what what.

[Seth]

Of course, this thread is about the NHS, not Seth's loony libertarian beliefs, no matter how amusing they are.

I was in hospital myself yesterday, for an MRI scan. Black Holes almighty, those things are intimidating.
It's like being inside the sump of the engine of a cross-channel ferry. You can't feel anything, but the noise is unbelieveable.

The place was spotless, the staff were extemely efficient and nice, and the hospital had a good atmosphere.
And money wasn't mentioned, except to empty my pockets of everything that might have metal in it.

So the " stopped clock " was telling the exact right time again. Maybe it's going after all? It's certainly telling the right time, every time I look.

How long did you have to wait for your appointment and how much did it cost someone else to give you your MRI?

[mistermack]

How long did you have to wait for your appointment and how much did it cost someone else to give you your MRI?

Just over two weeks, and my MRI was exactly what the NHS is there for.
And the cost is on average, half of what Americans pay for the same thing. And that's in spite of the fact that the USA doesn't cover fifty million of it's citizens.

That would equate to 11 or 12 million people in Britain with no health cover. You should be ashamed and embarassed, as a nation.
I would be ashamed of my country, if we left 12 million brits outside the NHS.

[Seth]

How long did you have to wait for your appointment and how much did it cost someone else to give you your MRI?

Just over two weeks, and my MRI was exactly what the NHS is there for.
And the cost is on average, half of what Americans pay for the same thing. And that's in spite of the fact that the USA doesn't cover fifty million of it's citizens.

That would equate to 11 or 12 million people in Britain with no health cover. You should be ashamed and embarassed, as a nation.
I would be ashamed of my country, if we left 12 million brits outside the NHS.

You'll be more ashamed when your country goes bankrupt from the cost of all that "free" healthcare and NOBODY gets NHS.