Why us furrrners get upset at some US foreign policy etc

[Clinton Huxley]

We don't want Snowden to end up in the Ecuadorean embassy in London, that's just asking for the Yanks to launch a drone strike on the Embassy of Montenegro next door or a nearby wedding party or "someone looking a bit fugitivey in Kensington Park".

[Mysturji]

Not especially.

Mostly because you're ranting about an "alleged" thing.

In the real world yes. In fairy land, the US is like pristine snow and doesn't influence foreign nations. What a crock. Are you seriously trying to suggest the US had nothing to do with France and Portugal's decision? Why the fuck would they care otherwise?

Maybe they have some appreciation that he is, in fact, a felon.

You mean I missed the trial already? Wow! That was quick! I didn't know the US had jurisdiction in Moscow airport. What's the poor guy's sentence? Does he get an appeal? Who does he appeal to? Where did he get legal representation? Was his lawyer competent? Sounds fishy to me, but then I think concepts like "due process" and "innocent until proven guilty" still have relevance.

And maybe they don't want the world looking too much at the faxt that the US intelligence community is more transparent than any other major power on earth including theirs.

Well, it is now, thanks to Snowden.

[Mysturji]

Hey, did the British complain when their consuls were detained by the USN after leaving Cuba in 1897?

I should hope they did!

Actually, the feather flew.

But this is a case of a fugitive, and we do have mutual agreements with a lot of countries regarding fugitives.

... in which there are caveats and exceptions for political "crimes". Mostly left up to the requestee state to interpret/decide upon.

[laklak]

Common enemy (initially) and all that. Seth, Collector, Seabass, Lak, Sandy and I could all be fighting alongside each other...

Highly advanced alien cultures invading and trying to farm us for food makes strange bedfellows.

[Warren Dew]

It's a pretty cool site. You can track all these planes!

FireShot Screen Capture #102 - 'FAB-001 - Bolivian Air Force - Flightradar24' - _fab-001.jpg

Wow, the Bolivians have a much bigger air force than I'd imagined!

[Warren Dew]

FAB-001 enters French airspace! Anything hanky going on there, Svarty?

Not that I know, there's nothing officially announced as to the original supposed refusal to let Morales cross our airspace, I guess we'll atone by being overnice now.

You can thank pressure from that enlightened liberal politician, Marine Le Pen:

http://www.lessentiel.lu/fr/news/story/13909037

[Warren Dew]

I really struggle to believe that this wasn't done under the request of the US authorities. It's been reported (although, unsourced) that they have been pressuring countries to not grant asylum to Snowden. And witnessing the zealotry that they have shown in regard to Snowden, and Assange and Manning before him, I really find it hard to believe that they are not pushing as hard as they can "diplomatically" to get this guy. After all, if they allow first Assange, and then Snowden to escape their net, that's a trendline and will embolden future whistleblowers/spies/whatever to take a crack. If they US can nail one of these guys hard, then they will surely send a clear message that you don't cross the State and hope to get away with it.

Of course it was done at the request of the U.S. However, a request is just that: a request. It can be turned down, and those who don't like how the U.S. behaves should get used to turning the requests down.

Yes, in conservative world, everything is that simplistic. In the real world, there are consequences for actions. They may be free to ignore the request or accede to it. But if they ignore it, they surely know there will be repercussions. And in fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some of the repercussions where explicitly stated.

Oooh, yeah, when France refused to participate in the U.S. embargo on Cuba, the U.S. cut their foreign aid to France - all $100,000 of it. Big whoop.

E.U. nations simply don't get to use this excuse. The E.U. is economically bigger and more powerful than the U.S.; if anything, they negotiate with the U.S. from a position of power, not from a position of weakness.

Now, Portugal, unlike France, is highly dependent on foreign goodwill, but the foreign goodwill they need is from France, not from the U.S., because it's France, along with Germany, that gets to dictate the terms of Portugal's economic bailouts. But that just makes France an even bigger bad guy here, not the U.S.

Ultimately, if you take your antiamerican glasses off, it's quite clear that Hollande had his own reasons for wanting to interdict Snowden. And those reasons are pretty clear, too: like Obama, Hollande's governing socialist philosophy is that of a big government being in charge, and the people doing what the government tells them to do. Snowden didn't follow his big government's orders, so of course he needed to be made an example of, to deter similar whistleblowing in France just as much as in the U.S.

Bolivia is just lucky that Le Pen made a ruckus.

Now, the argument about putting pressure on possible asylum states is more valid, because some of those states are much more vulnerable to U.S. pressure. It's just that that argument doesn't fly with France, which can do as much damage to the U.S. as the U.S. could do to them.

The fact that you folks are complaining about the U.S. and not about France makes it look from here like you are just finding an occasion to vent your antiamerican bias, and are ignoring the real issues.

[Warren Dew]

For you education, Collector, the "center" of politics in the US is considered the Right in most of the rest of the developed world. The Democrats are a centre-right party. The Republicans wouldn't exist in most of our countries, outside of perhaps a tiny number of members, due to them being batshit fruitcake insane racist homophobic sexists.

Russia is part of the developed world, and they are much farther right of the U.S. than the E.U. is left of the U.S. By any reasonable measure, the U.S. is left of center.

[Svartalf]

FAB-001 enters French airspace! Anything hanky going on there, Svarty?

Not that I know, there's nothing officially announced as to the original supposed refusal to let Morales cross our airspace, I guess we'll atone by being overnice now.

You can thank pressure from that enlightened liberal politician, Marine Le Pen:

http://www.lessentiel.lu/fr/news/story/13909037

Like anybody is going to listen to her... and it sounds like we DID initially forbid Morales from flying over France.

I now have lost the last shred of respect I had for our gummint.

[Tero]

For you education, Collector, the "center" of politics in the US is considered the Right in most of the rest of the developed world. The Democrats are a centre-right party. The Republicans wouldn't exist in most of our countries, outside of perhaps a tiny number of members, due to them being batshit fruitcake insane racist homophobic sexists.

Russia is part of the developed world, and they are much farther right of the U.S. than the E.U. is left of the U.S. By any reasonable measure, the U.S. is left of center.

I'll only agree to that after most of Obamacare is implented.

[MiM]

JimC, I think you have voiced some very valid concerns here, in quite an eloquent way



...and I don't oppose your tart kick at collector either.

[Cormac]

Not especially.

Mostly because you're ranting about an "alleged" thing.

In the real world yes. In fairy land, the US is like pristine snow and doesn't influence foreign nations. What a crock. Are you seriously trying to suggest the US had nothing to do with France and Portugal's decision? Why the fuck would they care otherwise?

No, but I would suggest that perhaps France, Portugal and the twenty or so (so far) countries that have turned down Snowden's asylum request might be doing so for reasons other than the big, bad US intimidating and/or threatening all of them. Maybe they have some appreciation that he is, in fact, a felon. And maybe they don't want the world looking too much at the faxt that the US intelligence community is more transparent than any other major power on earth including theirs.

Nah, no reasons for them to care, no self-interest at all. The big, bad US must've threatened them all.

It is only only transparent because people keep leaking because they rightly think that the US has stepped over the line that democracies should not cross.

[Cormac]

I really struggle to believe that this wasn't done under the request of the US authorities. It's been reported (although, unsourced) that they have been pressuring countries to not grant asylum to Snowden. And witnessing the zealotry that they have shown in regard to Snowden, and Assange and Manning before him, I really find it hard to believe that they are not pushing as hard as they can "diplomatically" to get this guy. After all, if they allow first Assange, and then Snowden to escape their net, that's a trendline and will embolden future whistleblowers/spies/whatever to take a crack. If they US can nail one of these guys hard, then they will surely send a clear message that you don't cross the State and hope to get away with it.

Of course it was done at the request of the U.S. However, a request is just that: a request. It can be turned down, and those who don't like how the U.S. behaves should get used to turning the requests down.

Yes, in conservative world, everything is that simplistic. In the real world, there are consequences for actions. They may be free to ignore the request or accede to it. But if they ignore it, they surely know there will be repercussions. And in fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some of the repercussions where explicitly stated.

Oooh, yeah, when France refused to participate in the U.S. embargo on Cuba, the U.S. cut their foreign aid to France - all $100,000 of it. Big whoop.

E.U. nations simply don't get to use this excuse. The E.U. is economically bigger and more powerful than the U.S.; if anything, they negotiate with the U.S. from a position of power, not from a position of weakness.

Now, Portugal, unlike France, is highly dependent on foreign goodwill, but the foreign goodwill they need is from France, not from the U.S., because it's France, along with Germany, that gets to dictate the terms of Portugal's economic bailouts. But that just makes France an even bigger bad guy here, not the U.S.

Ultimately, if you take your antiamerican glasses off, it's quite clear that Hollande had his own reasons for wanting to interdict Snowden. And those reasons are pretty clear, too: like Obama, Hollande's governing socialist philosophy is that of a big government being in charge, and the people doing what the government tells them to do. Snowden didn't follow his big government's orders, so of course he needed to be made an example of, to deter similar whistleblowing in France just as much as in the U.S.

Bolivia is just lucky that Le Pen made a ruckus.

Now, the argument about putting pressure on possible asylum states is more valid, because some of those states are much more vulnerable to U.S. pressure. It's just that that argument doesn't fly with France, which can do as much damage to the U.S. as the U.S. could do to them.

The fact that you folks are complaining about the U.S. and not about France makes it look from here like you are just finding an occasion to vent your antiamerican bias, and are ignoring the real issues.

France has many dirty secrets.

Given that Snowden revealed that the US was spying on France, I'm surprised that it is falling into line for the US.

I shouldn't be though. France is monumentally corrupt, and let us not forget the Rainbow Warrior.

[Ian]

Um, no. (To the post before the last one)

[Cormac]

Um, no. (To Cormac)

Um, yeah.

And even if the US has a more transparent intelligence service, it doesn't mean in any way that what they have been doing is justifiable.