Guns Used.....cont

[Jason]

Oh missed that. I still stand by what I wrote though. Pulling a gun is a disproportionate response. I would have just broke the guys arm when he extended to throw the punch, fractured a couple ribs, and left him bleeding on the concrete.

..but that's me.

[FBM]

Like I said, you don't know how big the guy was and whether or not he was trained. Or carrying a knife. Lots of unknowns. Anyhoo, the law at the scene didn't see that he did anything wrong.

[Cormac]

To Seth.

Let me quote an adage of skeptics - you know, those guys who think rationally.

"The plural of anecdote is not data."

You can tell all sorts of stories, and they mean as much as if they came from "The Bumper Boys book of Violence."

A while back, I tried to gather some statistics on home invasions. I couldn't. The reason turns out that this kind of crime is so rare that the various police forces around the world do not even bother collecting statistics on it. Now, if you are talking burglaries, we have another story. There is any amount of data on burglaries, because that is a common crime.

A burglar, though, will avoid his victims like the plague. Burglars stake out a house and observe it, and make sure they enter only when no one is at home. Contrary to myth, most burglaries occur in broad daylight, because that is when people are out. The ones that happen at night are those places where the occupants are on holiday and away, and the burglar discovers this fact. If the burglar enters a home in error, when people are there, as soon as he finds out, he is out of there like the wind. The point I am making is that having a gun to counter burglars is quite pointless, since the burglar will not enter the home when people are there.

To have a gun to counter home invasions is like wearing a steel helmet all the time in case a meteor falls on your head. It is an event so rare that those precautions are a joke. Keeping a gun to oppose home invasions is so irrational that we can call it utterly paranoid. As I have pointed out repeatedly, the increase in probability of both homicide and suicide of a family member, because of that gun, is massively greater than the tiny chance the gun can be used in self defense.

Nor are home invasions rare because of guns. Home invasions are rare everywhere. They are sufficiently rare in my country, where no one has a hand gun, that each and every one is published in national newspapers. Try to get a burglary written up in the papers!

With all due respect, burglaries do happen at night, with regularity. (Because we hear of them - but this of itself doesn't mean they're common).

It might be that most burglaries happen during the day - and this makes sense, but that doesn't reduce the incidence of night-time burglaries to insignificance in and of itself.

Evidence would have to be offered, in the form of hard data for that.

[Cormac]

Seth

Security systems are already better than hand guns. Because a good security system will stop any burglar or other intruder entering your home in the first place. Most landlords will encourage the installation of such systems, because they increase the value of their investment.

Hand guns reduce, not increase security. A hand gun in the home, for the millionth time, increases the odds you will lose a member of your family through murder or suicide. For every criminal killed by a person at home, there are 100 people in their homes killed by guns, usually wielded by someone who is known - a 'friend', or a relative, or (most often) a spouse. Having a hand gun in the home simply increases the number of such killings.

The fear of home invasions is simply paranoia, since being murdered by a home invader happens so infrequently, in any country with or without hand guns. Might as well wear that steel helmet to save yourself from meteorites.

Describe a security system that deters a criminal from breaking into your property?

I know of very few.

Certainly - a burglar alarm won't do it.

A few bullmastiffs might deter them - but, bluntly, I'd rather not put an innocent dog between me and harm's way.

A burglar alarm will not do it - not even one that pretends that police will respond to their alerts. (Police have publicly stated that they will not respond to these in Ireland - and yet the companies providing the "service" continue to advertise as if they will).

Steel bars on the windows? Maybe - but then you'd probably run into a planning violation - not to mention risking your family's safety in case of fire.

Electric fence - exposed to lawsuits - even from burglars.

Spiky fence - exposed to lawsuits - even from burglars.


So - what kind of security system?

[Cormac]

Seth

I said home invasions are rare. They happen, just as meteorites fall from the sky from time to time. They get lots of publicity when they happen because they are rare. This means you can find anecdotes if you want to, and of course they happened. But they are still rare.

There is a difference between a home invasion and a burglary, even if the burglar enters an occupied home. The burglar will do his best to avoid that error, but of course it happens from time to time. The difference is that a home invasion involves people being held, while a burglary that happens in error when people are at home will involve the burglar avoiding contact with the residents. A burglar is simply after your property and does not want to even see you. A home invader will deliberately threaten the occupants. A totally different event.

Nor do hand guns alter that. We have no hand guns in NZ, and home invasions are very rare here. The fact that they are rare in the USA is for the same reason. The criminals involved prefer to avoid serious trouble, and the police take home invasions very seriously. In my country, pretty much every home invasion crime is solved, and the criminals involved locked up for a long period. They are caught because the police put in a big effort. Burglaries are common, but burglars will avoid people. Police do not try very hard to solve burglaries, and relatively few burglars are ever caught by the police, making burglary a much more attractive option than home invasion for criminals.

I don't for one second accept that burglars are timid fellows, who take off at the first chance of discovery.

Burglars will wander around in rooms where people are sleeping. They are fully prepared to fight, and will usually come armed - if not with a knife, then a screwdriver (equally deadly).

[Cormac]

Uhm, yeah.
A "lethal" club can be targeted to the deserving party.
Pepper spray can not and will have collateral affect in a group. Collateral parties don't deserve to be affected by the spray, they've already been exposed to the asshole.

Have you ever been exposed to pepper spray--it makes for a miserable time that doesn't wear off very fast.

Correctamundo.

[FBM]

Make of it what you like...

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

U.S. Department of Justice
Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics

Special Report

National Crime Victimization Survey

Victimization During Household Burglary

September 2010 NCJ 227379

Shannan Catalano, Ph.D.,
BJS Statistician
-------------------------------------------------------------
This file is text only without graphics and many of the
tables. A Zip archive of the tables in this report in
spreadsheet format (.csv) and the full report including
tables and graphics in .pdf format are available from:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2172

Report is one in a series. More recent editions may be
available. To view a list of all in the series go to
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&lid=245
-------------------------------------------------------------


An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each
year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these
burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary.
In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member
experienced some form of violent victimization (figure 1).

These estimates of burglary are based on a revised definition
of burglary from the standard classification in the National
Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). Historically, burglary is
classified as a property crime except when someone is home
during the burglary and a household member is attacked or
threatened. When someone is home during a burglary and
experiences violence, NCVS classification rules categorize the
victimization as a personal (rape/sexual assault, robbery, and
aggravated and simple assault) rather than a property crime
(household burglary, theft, and motor vehicle theft). In this
report, the definition of household burglary includes
burglaries in which a household member was a victim of a
violent crime (see Methodology).

Highlights

*An estimated 3.7 million burglaries occurred each year on
average from 2003 to 2007.

*A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries
and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.

*Simple assault (15%) was the most common form of violence when
a resident was home and violence occurred. Robbery (7%) and
rape (3%) were less likely to occur when a household member was
present and violence occurred.

*Offenders were known to their victims in 65% of violent
burglaries; offenders were strangers in 28%.

*Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence occurred
during a burglary while a resident was present. About 12% of
all households violently burglarized while someone was home
faced an offender armed with a firearm.

*Households residing in single family units and higher density
structures of 10 or more units were least likely to be
burglarized (8 per 1,000 households) while a household member
was present.

*Serious injury accounted for 9% and minor injury accounted for
36% of injuries sustained by household members who were home
and experienced violence during a completed burglary.
...

[Cormac]

Make of it what you like...

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

U.S. Department of Justice
Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics

Special Report

National Crime Victimization Survey

Victimization During Household Burglary

September 2010 NCJ 227379

Shannan Catalano, Ph.D.,
BJS Statistician
-------------------------------------------------------------
This file is text only without graphics and many of the
tables. A Zip archive of the tables in this report in
spreadsheet format (.csv) and the full report including
tables and graphics in .pdf format are available from:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2172

Report is one in a series. More recent editions may be
available. To view a list of all in the series go to
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&lid=245
-------------------------------------------------------------


An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each
year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these
burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary.
In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member
experienced some form of violent victimization (figure 1).

These estimates of burglary are based on a revised definition
of burglary from the standard classification in the National
Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). Historically, burglary is
classified as a property crime except when someone is home
during the burglary and a household member is attacked or
threatened. When someone is home during a burglary and
experiences violence, NCVS classification rules categorize the
victimization as a personal (rape/sexual assault, robbery, and
aggravated and simple assault) rather than a property crime
(household burglary, theft, and motor vehicle theft). In this
report, the definition of household burglary includes
burglaries in which a household member was a victim of a
violent crime (see Methodology).

Highlights

*An estimated 3.7 million burglaries occurred each year on
average from 2003 to 2007.

*A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries
and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.

*Simple assault (15%) was the most common form of violence when
a resident was home and violence occurred. Robbery (7%) and
rape (3%) were less likely to occur when a household member was
present and violence occurred.

*Offenders were known to their victims in 65% of violent
burglaries; offenders were strangers in 28%.

*Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence occurred
during a burglary while a resident was present. About 12% of
all households violently burglarized while someone was home
faced an offender armed with a firearm.

*Households residing in single family units and higher density
structures of 10 or more units were least likely to be
burglarized (8 per 1,000 households) while a household member
was present.

*Serious injury accounted for 9% and minor injury accounted for
36% of injuries sustained by household members who were home
and experienced violence during a completed burglary.
...

7% of 3.7million is 259,000

In the 1 million cases where people were at home, 26% resulted in violence. But then you have to wonder about the 75% - were the homeowners reduced to gibbering wrecks, suffering ptsd in their own homes, or were some of them people who stood up for themselves and frightened the burglars away? Is it counted as a violent incident if you came running down the stairs with a baseball bat, roaring that you were going to break their skull - and they ran out?

Finally - I would like to see their definition of "armed". Burglars commonly use screwdrivers to force entry, and they fully intend to use them as weapons if the circumstance arose. (Ask any cop). Does this research define "armed" as having a knife or a gun only?

As far as I am concerned, a scrote that has broken into my house is armed.

[FBM]

"scrote." You old choirboy. Dunno their definition of 'armed.' But it does seemed that home invasions are pretty common, all things considered. As is violence in such.

[Cormac]

"scrote." You old choirboy. Dunno their definition of 'armed.' But it does seemed that home invasions are pretty common, all things considered. As is violence in such.

Yep.

[Blind groper]

FBM

You did better than me. I could not find such statistics.

I know that, here in NZ, where hand guns are not held by householders, home invasions in which someone is threatened or harmed, are sufficiently rare that each and every one of them makes national newspaper headlines. I did not have the data to show if they were more common or less in the USA. Your figures would indicate they are more common, which kinda throws intense suspicion on the suggestion that guns are a deterrent.

The figure of 65% of violent offenders known to their victims ties in with what I said earlier about murders in the home. It also suggests that the majority of home invasions were not some random crime, but a vendetta type action by a person who knew their victim and had a grudge.

As I said before, most murders, and most acts of violence, are carried out by 'friends', relatives, spouses, or acquaintances.

[Blind groper]

Describe a security system that deters a criminal from breaking into your property?

There are many. And yes, a burglar alarm will deter the majority of burglars. I have spoken to security experts, and they tell me that even a blue light outside the home that looks like a burglar alarm, without anything else, will deter most burglars.

I have a secure room in my house, with an outside door only (I store dangerous chemicals, and I need to make sure untrained people cannot gain access). That door is solid steel, and I challenge any burglar to get past it.

The rest of my house has lots and lots of glass. The glass is double glazed and armor plate. The supplier guaranteed me that nothing short of a sledge hammer wielded by a very big man could break it. Which action is extremely obvious, and hence not the thing a burglar likes to do. My locks are proof against any burglar who is not also a locksmith.

Of course, most of us do not want to turn their home into a fortress, so we rely of methods that simply deter burglars. Here is a list.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/sto ... 923&page=1

[Jason]

[Robert_S]

FBM

You did better than me. I could not find such statistics.

I know that, here in NZ, where hand guns are not held by householders, home invasions in which someone is threatened or harmed, are sufficiently rare that each and every one of them makes national newspaper headlines. I did not have the data to show if they were more common or less in the USA. Your figures would indicate they are more common, which kinda throws intense suspicion on the suggestion that guns are a deterrent.

The figure of 65% of violent offenders known to their victims ties in with what I said earlier about murders in the home. It also suggests that the majority of home invasions were not some random crime, but a vendetta type action by a person who knew their victim and had a grudge.

As I said before, most murders, and most acts of violence, are carried out by 'friends', relatives, spouses, or acquaintances.

If you do not have the statistics, then all you know is that each home invasion in which someone is threatened or harmed that makes the headlines, makes the headlines.

[Cormac]

Describe a security system that deters a criminal from breaking into your property?

There are many. And yes, a burglar alarm will deter the majority of burglars. I have spoken to security experts, and they tell me that even a blue light outside the home that looks like a burglar alarm, without anything else, will deter most burglars.

I have a secure room in my house, with an outside door only (I store dangerous chemicals, and I need to make sure untrained people cannot gain access). That door is solid steel, and I challenge any burglar to get past it.

The rest of my house has lots and lots of glass. The glass is double glazed and armor plate. The supplier guaranteed me that nothing short of a sledge hammer wielded by a very big man could break it. Which action is extremely obvious, and hence not the thing a burglar likes to do. My locks are proof against any burglar who is not also a locksmith.

Of course, most of us do not want to turn their home into a fortress, so we rely of methods that simply deter burglars. Here is a list.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/sto ... 923&page=1

Generally, they'll have a quick and dirty way around nearly every precuation.

For example, many sliding windows can be simply popped off their runners. Another approach is simply to cut the glass off.