Israel/Palestine; has the shit finally hit the fan?

[pErvinalia]

I can't be certain, but I recall reading that Hamas has backed away from such an absolutist position. Fatah doesn't hold that position. I should make it clear, I have absolutely no idea what would be a viable solution here (other than an internationally enforced (i.e. peace keepers) two state solution based on some previous iteration of the borders). But I feel it in my bones that eventually the US will cut Israel off, and when that happens, unless they make serious inroads towards peace, they are going to invite hell on earth on themselves. I.e. we might end up seeing another holocaust.

[Audley Strange]

Either way, I have no problem with holding Israeli citizens responsible for their government's actions, as pretty much all major parties are the same in regards to occupation. I.e. they are in breach of UN thingo's (can't think of the name right now.. ) and they have routinely killed many hundreds of civilians, including children. That country deserves what it's eventually got coming to it (i.e. when the US cuts off the gravy, they are fucked).

You are beginning to sound like Gawd.

I agree though that false nation states erected for political convenience don't tend to have pleasant histories nor seem to last. That goes for both Palestine and Israel. They are like Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, fall outs of 20th century power shifts. I can't see either being sustained without pepetuating the violence because it is what defines them.

[pErvinalia]

I read somewhere that Texas and Argentina were options for the Israel state back when. I can't help thinking it was a pity they didn't chose Texas. Texas couldn't be more fucked up than it is, and in fact, most Jews would massively raise the IQ level there.

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

Given that both sides reach back into distant history to justify their claims - perhaps it's time to remind the Jews that they killed me. and that the Muslims are going to burn in hell.

Or simply point out that if we in the west can get past holding those sorts of grudges (plus a couple of world wars!) then perhaps they wanna give that idea a go..........let it go dudes.

[pErvinalia]

Given that both sides reach back into distant history to justify their claims - perhaps it's time to remind the Jews that they killed me. and that the Muslims are going to burn in hell.

Or simply point out that if we in the west can get past holding those sorts of grudges (plus a couple of world wars!) then perhaps they wanna give that idea a go..........let it go dudes.

Yeah, it's a bit like some internet debates that get more and more snarky over time. Given I've been in my fair share of those, I feel qualified to say that one always knows it's going to end badly. BUT SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET! Logic (in the sense of stopping a pointless argument) gives way to emotion and things just continue to escalate. The only difference is, Israel v Palestine has no moderator or forum rules. Sure, they technically exist (the UN, international law), but they aren't being used. At some point the mods are going to have to step in if they want to avert a truly staggering human-rights tragedy.

[Cormac]

I do not think there is any doubt about the fact that Hamas is hurting itself. The sad thing is that it is all about hatred. The Palestinians hate Israel (and America and Britain) for the very good reason that Israel, America and Britain stole their land off them. Israelis hate Palestinians partly because they feel guilty and it is easier to hate someone than feel guilty about the nastiness you have done to them, and partly because Palestinians keep fighting back.

The whole thing is idiotic, and it is high time the powers that be kicked a bit of butt, on both sides. But especially Israeli butt.

There is no easy solution, but a good start would be for Israel to get out of the conquered territories, turn them over to Palestine, and recognise Palestine as an independent and sovereign state. Israel should do this unilaterally, without conditions, and regardless of the fact that Hamas continues to be hostile. America, Britain etc can then divert their aid money from buying new jets for Israel to building hospitals for Palestine.

In the end, the only solution will be one that leaves these stupid sectarian and racial ideologies behind. Prefeerably a sinlhe secular and democratic state.

The supposed "Two State Solution" (to which Israel is implacably opposed, despite public statements otherwise), will actually only codify the sectarian rivalry and hatred. (Not that it will happen anyway, because Israel is determined to complete the long slow genocide of the Palestinians.

I think that both Israeli and Palestinian "identities" should ultimately be extinguished, and replaced with a new identity forged out of a common determination to never again find themselves subject to or guilty of genocidal policies.

[Coito ergo sum]

You mean the Israeli government has not stopped their little genocide and they're still blaming Iran? Quelle suprise.

This is utter nonsense. 21% of the Israeli population is non-Jewish. Who are they exterminating?

In the northern part of Israel the Jewish population is declining. The overall non-Jewish Arab population within Israel is on the rise, and they hold majority status in two major geographic regions – the Galilee and the Triangle. In the next 20-30 years, population changes project Israel becoming 50-50 Jewish and non-Jewish, and even majority Arab by around 2040.

That's genocide?

[Coito ergo sum]

If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be no war. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel.

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

In the northern part of Israel the Jewish population is declining. The overall non-Jewish Arab population within Israel is on the rise, and they hold majority status in two major geographic regions – the Galilee and the Triangle. In the next 20-30 years, population changes project Israel becoming 50-50 Jewish and non-Jewish, and even majority Arab by around 2040.

Well, if the Jews stopped moving to Palestine then maybe Israel would could out breed the locals?

In any event I am sure that the Jews have an idea or 3 about correcting the impending population imbalance.......probably something to do with god. and guns.

[pErvinalia]

If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be no war. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel.

And here we all thought it was a complex problem. Silly us.

[Coito ergo sum]

In the northern part of Israel the Jewish population is declining. The overall non-Jewish Arab population within Israel is on the rise, and they hold majority status in two major geographic regions – the Galilee and the Triangle. In the next 20-30 years, population changes project Israel becoming 50-50 Jewish and non-Jewish, and even majority Arab by around 2040.

Well, if the Jews stopped moving to Palestine then maybe Israel would could out breed the locals?

What is wrong with people moving to Israel or Palestine, of whatever religion?

In any event I am sure that the Jews have an idea or 3 about correcting the impending population imbalance.......probably something to do with god. and guns.

Like what, specifically? If that was their intent, why would they have let the population imbalance become "impending" in the first place? Surely it would have been easier to "deal" with the "problem" 40 years ago, wouldn't it?

[Coito ergo sum]

If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be no war. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel.

And here we all thought it was a complex problem. Silly us.

It is a very complex problem, but the quote still stands.

[pErvinalia]

moving and occupation aren't quite the same thing...

[pErvinalia]

If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be no war. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel.

And here we all thought it was a complex problem. Silly us.

It is a very complex problem, but the quote still stands.

That quote is probably one of the most stupidly simplistic things I have ever seen.

eta: and no, I'm not going to explain why. Debating with you is probably one of the most pointless exercises on the planet.

[Coito ergo sum]

moving and occupation aren't quite the same thing...

Well, JesusofNazerath used the word "moving."

Is Tel Aviv occupied territory? By whom? The Israeli government?