Shooting Outside Empire State Building

[JimC]

And, in the time that it took the ever-present and ubiquitous NYPD officers to arrive, ten people were shot.

It seems that in this case, the suspect went to the police instead of vice versa.

Specifically, after killing his former boss, he headed to the empire state building, followed by two construction workers who were looking for police to warn. When he got there, the construction workers found police, the police accosted the suspect, the suspect pulled a gun, and the police started shooting, killing the suspect and wounding nine bystanders.

At least that's what the New Yorker says. It seems likely that the police shot more people than the criminal did, here.

And I'm considered weird for wanting a society with as few hand guns as humanely possible...

[Warren Dew]

And, in the time that it took the ever-present and ubiquitous NYPD officers to arrive, ten people were shot.

It seems that in this case, the suspect went to the police instead of vice versa.

Specifically, after killing his former boss, he headed to the empire state building, followed by two construction workers who were looking for police to warn. When he got there, the construction workers found police, the police accosted the suspect, the suspect pulled a gun, and the police started shooting, killing the suspect and wounding nine bystanders.

At least that's what the New Yorker says. It seems likely that the police shot more people than the criminal did, here.

And I'm considered weird for wanting a society with as few hand guns as humanely possible...

Haven't heard you argue for restricting only the police yet.

[mistermack]

It seems likely that the police shot more people than the criminal did, here.

Amazing !
There seems to be a pattern emerging here.

[Tyrannical]

How does this NY shooting even make the news? Nineteen people were shot overnight in Chicago.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 9779.story

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There are reports of a bomber now.

[Seth]

How does this NY shooting even make the news? Nineteen people were shot overnight in Chicago.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 9779.story

This is impossible, because Chicago has very strict gun laws that prevents people from carrying guns in public, or even owning them.

Or did the police shoot all of them?

[Woodbutcher]

How does this NY shooting even make the news? Nineteen people were shot overnight in Chicago.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 9779.story

That's just coloured kids blowing off steam....

[Tero]

Hang on, doesn't New York have strict gun laws?!

No no, it's a clean city. Those are gum laws.

[Seth]

Hang on, doesn't New York have strict gun laws?!

No no, it's a clean city. Those are gum laws.

No, that's Singapore...really. It's illegal to chew gum in public in Singapore.

[kiki5711]

I don't think if everyone carried a gun, (supposedly then you could kill the psycho before he kills you) that it would be better. These nut jobs come out of nowhere and in a split second, before you even register in your brain something is happening, he's already shot ten to fifteen rounds.

Everyone being able to carry a gun would result in multiple shootings every day, everywhere. People are emotional, drunk, drugged, or just plain nasty or angry and would use it in a moment when they're not thinking straight. Even those people with some shooting experience at gun ranges, do not have the training like cops to react quickly enough to an "instant surprise" moment. It would result in total chaos.

[Seth]

I don't think if everyone carried a gun, (supposedly then you could kill the psycho before he kills you) that it would be better. These nut jobs come out of nowhere and in a split second, before you even register in your brain something is happening, he's already shot ten to fifteen rounds.

Yup, exactly. No time to wait for the police.

Everyone being able to carry a gun would result in multiple shootings every day, everywhere.

Except that doesn't happen. There are millions of Americans who have concealed carry permits. I'm one of them. As a rule, we are far MORE law-abiding than even your average non-gun-toting citizen, and the fact is that we don't go around shooting people for paltry or specious reasons. Fact is that civilians with guns are eleven times LESS likely to actually shoot in a situation where they are legally justified in doing so than police officers are, according to the FBI.

People are emotional, drunk, drugged, or just plain nasty or angry and would use it in a moment when they're not thinking straight. Even those people with some shooting experience at gun ranges, do not have the training like cops to react quickly enough to an "instant surprise" moment. It would result in total chaos.

Except it doesn't. The experiment has been completed here in the US. Begun around 1985, when Florida first liberalized it's concealed carry laws and passed "shall issue," today 40 states issue permits to anyone who qualifies and there is absolutely no indication that the sort of blood-baths you predict are a reality.

And it may surprise you to know that a large number of civilians with guns (like me) are actually far more competent with them than a large number of police officers. I train about every week. Most police officers qualify once a year. Having been a cop, I can tell you that the "training" they receive to "react quickly enough" is minimal, and certainly no better than most of the advanced tactical training that's available to civilians.

There was a cop in New York some decades ago who died after being shot by a criminal because his department-issue revolver was cemented into his holster by dirt and bits of food and he couldn't draw it quickly. And when it was tested by the FBI, it was found to be jammed with food particles and corroded beyond use.

Now, that's an unusual situation to say the least, but even if civilians aren't expert marksmen or fast-draw gunfighters, it's better that someone besides the deranged gunman be armed when he starts shooting. There's no guaranteed, for example, that I won't be the first one shot dead without warning, but that's no reason to disarm me because given about 1.5 seconds or so and a little luck I would be able to respond to such a shooting effectively.

And it's my right to be armed so that I can make that attempt to save my life and the lives of others. And it's NO ONE'S right to disarm me because they fear what might happen in a shootout.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I agree with Seth that wild shoot-outs don't occur frequently despite the number of guns on hand in the US. The "great blood bath" scenario required that everybody be:

Brave enough to use their weapon.
Willing to use their weapon.
Angry/disturbed/just fucking nuts enough to use their.
AND be in the company of others in a similar state.

[JimC]

I agree with Seth that wild shoot-outs don't occur frequently despite the number of guns on hand in the US. The "great blood bath" scenario required that everybody be:

Brave enough to use their weapon.
Willing to use their weapon.
Angry/disturbed/just fucking nuts enough to use their.
AND be in the company of others in a similar state.

And the one thing that would guarantee the scenario would not happen would simply be the absence of people carrying hand guns...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Hang on, doesn't New York have strict gun laws?!

No no, it's a clean city. Those are gum laws.

No, that's Singapore...really. It's illegal to chew gum in public in Singapore.

Actually, no. It used to be illegal. Nowadays it is only illegal to drop it in public.

[Warren Dew]

How does this NY shooting even make the news? Nineteen people were shot overnight in Chicago.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 9779.story

That's just coloured kids blowing off steam....

That seems to be how the press sees it. As long as white people aren't involved, the press doesn't care.