Having a form of identification to vote.

[mistermack]

Two things. First of all making anything compulsory takes away the choice not to involve yourself. You are creating a law which forces people to take part in a politically motivated spectacle. It's not rubbish to say that is dictatorial, it is dictatorial by definition. You are being dictated to, legally forced to do what you've told when there is no reason for it at all. Your parochial attitude says people should be punished for not doing what you think they should do. You are creating a crime for no other reason that a political motivation.

Or maybe you just lose a one-off sum from your benefit. ( like I suggested but you didn't take in )

Secondly this "none of the above" bullshit is just a glib toss away line that sounds good to those who don't think. It is an insane idea because without radical changes to the system of governance to support such a change, (and such radical changes would be an admission to a broken system. So why not attempt to fix it, if you are making an effort anyway, why not address the problems rather than just admit you recognise it with a stupid and dangerous "none of the above" option?) it would lead to a temporary cessation of the democratic process. If a majority vote "none of the above" then the current administration even if just in power to oversee the next election would have no mandate to do so. No one would, so what police state? Military Junta? Just go, "fuck it game over" and see what happens?

Fair play, you do go on some magnificent flights of fancy, completely away with the fairies.

If a majority voted for "none of the above" you would still have people with the most votes getting elected. Simple ennit?
And it might be exactly what the country needed.
People might see it as an oportunity to start NEW parties, (having taken the trouble to find out what the voters actually wanted).
That crap that you came out with is no different to what happens now.
If hardly anybody bothers to vote, it's hardly a mandate is it?
But that doesn't stop people from running the country.

[Audley Strange]

Two things. First of all making anything compulsory takes away the choice not to involve yourself. You are creating a law which forces people to take part in a politically motivated spectacle. It's not rubbish to say that is dictatorial, it is dictatorial by definition. You are being dictated to, legally forced to do what you've told when there is no reason for it at all. Your parochial attitude says people should be punished for not doing what you think they should do. You are creating a crime for no other reason that a political motivation.

Or maybe you just lose a one-off sum from your benefit. ( like I suggested but you didn't take in )

Which is still penalising people for political motivation and specific people too. Not the big bad rich people either. Have you actually thought about what you are
saying. You are saying you are in favour of penalising poor people for not voting. Enforced democracy is not democracy.

Secondly this "none of the above" bullshit is just a glib toss away line that sounds good to those who don't think. It is an insane idea because without radical changes to the system of governance to support such a change, (and such radical changes would be an admission to a broken system. So why not attempt to fix it, if you are making an effort anyway, why not address the problems rather than just admit you recognise it with a stupid and dangerous "none of the above" option?) it would lead to a temporary cessation of the democratic process. If a majority vote "none of the above" then the current administration even if just in power to oversee the next election would have no mandate to do so. No one would, so what police state? Military Junta? Just go, "fuck it game over" and see what happens?

If a majority voted for "none of the above" you would still have people with the most votes getting elected. Simple ennit?

No. Under your system those votes cannot be considered spoiled or not counted. They are active votes. People make an active decision for "none of the above" means that the majority have rejected the system. To then ignore that, to say, oh well that's what we thought would happen, is to totally demolish the need for either compulsory voting or a "none of the above" choice. In fact by going to those efforts, to coerce people to vote and and then to ignore the actual choice of the people is install a minority government is non-mandated Dictatorship. I notice you don't refute that.

[/quote]

And it might be exactly what the country needed.

Yeah and it might not. So what? you want to change everything just on a whim?

People might see it as an oportunity to start NEW parties, (having taken the trouble to find out what the voters actually wanted).

They might. They probably wouldn't. Why would anyone care what voters want, if voters are forced to vote the government is of primary importance not the people's wishes, you've made that clear.

That crap that you came out with is no different to what happens now.
If hardly anybody bothers to vote, it's hardly a mandate is it?
But that doesn't stop people from running the country.

So why change it to force people to vote and then add a choice that they are not allowed to consider a valid one? But yes it is a mandate, those who made an active choice are the ones that that chose.

Look, I understand you've heard someone say similar things and went "hey cool, yeah" , but really it's nonsense. It makes no sense, has little impact on the current system and serves only to piss people off by criminalising them. It is contradictory to the entire thing you are seeking to perpetuate, unless that is you are actually promoting devaluing democracy as a process to suit your own anti-democratic ideas in order to protect the value of democracy.

[MrJonno]

Voting should be compulsory (with none of the above as an option) as its a good anti-libertarian symbol. It reminds people that while they live in society they are part of something bigger themselves whether they like it or not. Reminds people that not everything in life is about personal choice

Yeah, in fact why not lock em up if you don't like their vote and why not stop people standing for elections if you don't like their opinions. In fact, fuck voting let's just enslave anyone who doesn't agree with us, that'll solve the problem.

THINK FFS.

I was thinking more of a fine for not voting jail seems a little extreme (through if you wish not to pay the fine its a different matter). How about we also make people pay for society even if they don't want taxes, lets make them fill in public records , have a passport if they want to come back into the country.

And for a really evil police state lets make people obey the law even if they didnt vote for the government who implemented it, its like a police state oh the tyranny. Time to get the guns out

[mistermack]

Audley, I can't believe you.
You read something, and embroider it with a million strawmen, which you then heroically demolish.

If you were to restrict yourself to what I actually wrote, then it might be possible to have a sensible discussion.

But if you go off on a spree of pure invention, that bears no resemblance to what I said, then there's no hope or point.

People who don't vote lose a bit of benefit. So what? They have the right to choose.
If they are not on benefit, then they lose a bit of tax free allowance. Again, it's their choice. There is no need to make it a criminal offence.
That's just one of many options.

In Britain, if you don't fill in a census form, you can be prosecuted. I believe also that if you don't fill in the voter registration form, it's a criminal offence. There is no problem with it. I've never ever heard anybody say it harmed their rights.

We have all sorts of laws we have to follow. Filling in a voter form is no different to any other duty that you incur by existing.

[laklak]

Mandatory voting? How about a mandatory IQ test as a prerequisite? That would sort out a bit of the chaff. Or maybe restrict the vote to landowners, I'd go for that.

[Coito ergo sum]

Voting should be compulsory (with none of the above as an option) as its a good anti-libertarian symbol. It reminds people that while they live in society they are part of something bigger themselves whether they like it or not. Reminds people that not everything in life is about personal choice

Yeah, in fact why not lock em up if you don't like their vote and why not stop people standing for elections if you don't like their opinions. In fact, fuck voting let's just enslave anyone who doesn't agree with us, that'll solve the problem.

THINK FFS.

I was thinking more of a fine for not voting jail seems a little extreme (through if you wish not to pay the fine its a different matter).

Wouldn't that be discriminatory and unfair? I mean - poor people wouldn't have the same practical ability to refrain from voting. Rich people could just not vote, and then pay the fine and it would be no biggie. But a poor person if he didn't want to vote, he wouldn't have the money to pay the fine and would have to serve time....

[Svartalf]

Mandatory voting? How about a mandatory IQ test as a prerequisite? That would sort out a bit of the chaff. Or maybe restrict the vote to landowners, I'd go for that.

Meh, I'd pass the IQ test, but it's sheer luck that I happen to own real estate, I'm not sure I can in full conscience condone the latter condition to voting rights.

[MrJonno]

Wouldn't that be discriminatory and unfair? I mean - poor people wouldn't have the same practical ability to refrain from voting. Rich people could just not vote, and then pay the fine and it would be no biggie. But a poor person if he didn't want to vote, he wouldn't have the money to pay the fine and would have to serve time....

Vote by post (free post), nominate someone else to vote for you, vote by internet. Free transport to the voting both if needed.

As for fines I assume they are proportional to income (or benefits) in the US like they are everywhere else

[JimC]

I think compulsory voting is definitely a minority amongst democratic nations. We have it in Oz, but it's not really the voting that's compulsory, it's turning up on the day and having your name ticked off that's compulsory...

If you want to take your ballot paper, and write "Mickey Mouse" on it, or FUCK ALL POLITICIANS, you can easily do so...

[Gallstones]

Yes. One should have to show ID, and I'd like to have people show that they understand the issues and are familiar with the candidates.

Compulsory voting is a waste of time and money.

[MrJonno]

I think compulsory voting is definitely a minority amongst democratic nations. We have it in Oz, but it's not really the voting that's compulsory, it's turning up on the day and having your name ticked off that's compulsory...

If you want to take your ballot paper, and write "Mickey Mouse" on it, or FUCK ALL POLITICIANS, you can easily do so...

That's perfectly reasonable as would be sending in a vote by post with the same message, its the principle that you have at least some obligations if you wish to live in society

[mistermack]

I think compulsory voting is definitely a minority amongst democratic nations. We have it in Oz, but it's not really the voting that's compulsory, it's turning up on the day and having your name ticked off that's compulsory...

If you want to take your ballot paper, and write "Mickey Mouse" on it, or FUCK ALL POLITICIANS, you can easily do so...

That's what would obviously have to happen. Nobody is suggesting that what you vote should ever be recorded against your name.

I'm getting quite keen on the "none of the above" party.
I've just got the feeling that there is a better name out there. More pithy and to the point.

[Warren Dew]

I think compulsory voting is definitely a minority amongst democratic nations. We have it in Oz, but it's not really the voting that's compulsory, it's turning up on the day and having your name ticked off that's compulsory...

If you want to take your ballot paper, and write "Mickey Mouse" on it, or FUCK ALL POLITICIANS, you can easily do so...

If it's not actually compulsory voting, it sound pretty pointless, to be honest.

[Audley Strange]

Audley, I can't believe you.
You read something, and embroider it with a million strawmen, which you then heroically demolish.

If you were to restrict yourself to what I actually wrote, then it might be possible to have a sensible discussion.

Okay. You wrote this.

Many of the poor ARE fucking lazy. And disorganised. And less likely to vote.
Right wing people DO take voting more seriously.
It's just a fact.
So what? That's WHY those people are poor in the first place.
People can bang on about how easy it is to do this, or do that. How you can get this form of ID, or that, for little money. It's all true.

But it's also true that there will always be disorganised people, who leave things too late, who don't take voting as seriously as people on the right. It's just a fact of life.

People on the right KNOW that, and KNOW that if you require ID, it will result in many people who would have voted, will not vote. Because it only takes a tiny obstacle to persuade them not to bother.
Bad weather is another. The right always does better in bad weather.
And most of THOSE people, who are easily put off, would have voted for the left. Not all, but most.

So it really is just a tactic to sway the balance.
George Bush got elected by a TINY margin the second time.
If everyone had voted, he would NEVER have got in.
So requiring ID can win an election, on it's own, if it's tight.

You are making the claim that poor people do not vote in the numbers that rich right do. You make the claim that the majority of those who do not vote would vote left wing parties.

Then you go on to say this.

There's a whole other thread there, about scammers.

Fact is, there are just as many rich scammers as poor. And they take FAR more from the working middle classes. And they remain hidden, behind their accountants.
They take money off you when you pay interest on a loan, or buy groceries, or fuel for your car. You don't see it, so you don't think they get any of YOUR money. But they do.

And if they get caught, they VERY rarely get more than a slap on the wrist.
Benefits cheats take tiny amounts in comparison to big business cheats.

Perhaps they should make it compulsory to vote. I would like to see that.
Or, if you don't vote, you lose some benefit. I would have no problem with that. It would then be valid to insist on ID.

Now what these two posts say is the following.

The rich are clever and vote right wing.
The poor are lazy and stupid and don't vote but should because they would vote left wing (your chosen political sympathy apparently)
You think if they are mobilsed because you want them to vote left wing.
Your suggestion to do this is to penalise them, i.e. make them poorer if they don't get up off their fucking stupid slobby arses. Fuckin' poor don't know what's fucking good for them.

That is a politically motivated law which will affect the people you claim need the help as well as many other groups, it will piss off people and further damage both the reputation of any political party that bring is in and society at large.

You are saying "Vote for us... Or Else!"

Your words. Only your words yeah?

[JimC]

I think compulsory voting is definitely a minority amongst democratic nations. We have it in Oz, but it's not really the voting that's compulsory, it's turning up on the day and having your name ticked off that's compulsory...

If you want to take your ballot paper, and write "Mickey Mouse" on it, or FUCK ALL POLITICIANS, you can easily do so...

That's perfectly reasonable as would be sending in a vote by post with the same message, its the principle that you have at least some obligations if you wish to live in society

I expect the number of such informal votes to rise in the next election, since our choice is between an incompetent and floundering incumbent Labour government and a pro-business Liberal Party lead by a truly nasty piece of work. The other party, the Greens, have some policies that I like, but other parts of their platform are full of extreme left wing garbage...