Public school controversy over singing Muslim worship song.

[Coito ergo sum]

Beware that a similar argument can be made for teacher-led, but "voluntary" prayers.

No - one is trying to impose religious behaviour; the other is learning to sing and performing for entertainment.

That all depends on the motivation of the school officials. They may be trying to impose religion through song.

Islam?

Depends on the city. In Dearborn, Michigan, it has been attempted.

[PsychoSerenity]

They may be trying to impose religion through song.

Well as long as they don't try to impose religion through interpretive dance, I think we'll be safe.

[HomerJay]

Ban all songs that refer to a deity? Just in case someone singing (or listening) happens to think the song requires them to believe, and is offended?

Beware that a similar argument can be made for teacher-led, but "voluntary" prayers.

No - one is trying to impose religious behaviour; the other is learning to sing and performing for entertainment.

is what it comes down to. You could argue there is a grey area with excessively religious or highly offensive songs - I'm sure someone could write a song to intentionally push the boundaries, but then no choir would have to sing it, - but I don't think this song comes close, and ultimately, choir practice is about music, not about believing one thing or another. And as it's about music I'd say it's sensible to practice a variety of styles, which is exactly the point the school made.

I'm not sure why music is different from any other form of literature, singing certain songs will get you arrested for sectarianism in Scotland now.

The song in question is a pastiche, a made up sufi devotional for a film, the only question is how accurately it reflects the belief that Allah destroys other gods, like Mo did in mecca, with the civilisation and beliefs that preceded him.

I used to know a guy (an ex-muslim, as it happens) who was a total reggae freak, taped loads of pirate stuff in London to mix tapes and send them off round the country, he had an epiphany one day when the religious content got too much for him and he gave the whole thing up. Same thing had happened to me a long time before, finding yourself singing along to misogynistic anti-abortion songs can take the edge of slightly.

[Coito ergo sum]

They may be trying to impose religion through song.

Well as long as they don't try to impose religion through interpretive dance, I think we'll be safe.

The religious are very inventive in how they seek to impose their cults.

[HomerJay]

That isn't the context of the fucking song.

You're looking at Rahman and saying he seems like a nice bloke, I'm saying that he has bought into a culture he doesn't fully understand and is regurgitating some drivel.

Nice bloke or not, it doesn't stop him from simply repeating century's old prejudices.

Did you actually read the lyrics of the song I posted?

Of course, do you see the battle between monotheism and polytheism?

No. Not in any overt way. I can see how you might see that but I think, without it explicitly mentioning other gods, it can also be taken to mean Allah is above idolatry and material worship.

Allaah is the only One who is eternal and immortal and rest are perishable and will be destroyed by Allaah
Apart from the greatness of Allaah, apologize from the hearts for anything else
Light of Mohammad, may peace be upon him, there is no other god except Allaah

It could be a translation thing, poor english but 'rest are perishable' means other gods, not the whole of non-perishable creation, or the next bit apologise from the hearts for anything else' doesn't make sense (it means apologise for polytheistic beliefs because Allah hates them), unless we are apologising for all that is not god?

'there is no other god except Allah', the shahada, in this context closing the discussion to establish one god. It takes some extreme mental gymnastics to read it any other way.

[Animavore]

Well maybe that is the correct intrepretation. I still don't think it should not be played by a choir. It's no different to playing that Krishna George Harris song.

[Seth]

Good luck finding your bling and your bitches in a store that doesn't offend your ears, then.



Seriously, you go ahead and take your approach to dealing with whatever you don't agree with. I'll take mine.

I will. Unless someone is actually harming me by playing music, which I've only seen once at a concert that was too loud (and all I did was put in earplugs) I don't see why you or anyone would want to complain about what a business chooses to use as it's Muzak. If you don't like their music, don't work there. That you objected to religious music doesn't show anything but your Atheist intolerance. It's harmless music. It doesn't rot your brain or anything, it's just music. You may not like the message, but what business is it of yours to begin with? Why can't you keep your opinion to yourself and allow the 80 percent of the public that does hold religious beliefs to enjoy such music? Why must you be so intolerant of their rights?

Now, in a public school, which is the subject of this thread, it's a different matter entirely, and objecting to overtly religious songs from any religion is fully supported by the law. Now I happen to think that the law is "a ass" in this regard, and that it should be up to the individual student to decide if they want to sing a particular work, but teachers should also use good judgment in choosing ethnic songs to avoid such controversies in the first place.

But that's not what the law says right now, and the student was fully justified in both refusing to sing the song and bringing it to the public's attention, were it can be discussed and examined.

[Seth]

Here's the lyrics.

http://www.lyricsvip.com/A.-R.-Rahman/Zikr-Lyrics.html

Here's the only lyric even close to what you're saying.

Allaah is the only One who is eternal and immortal and rest are perishable and will be destroyed by Allaah

Seems to me, in context, to be about God being the only thing that lasts (unlike, say, family, friends, love, looks, wealth, fame or glory).

ETA: Zikr = http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhikr

"Will be destroyed by Allah" is fucking enough...

Fascist cunts...

Am I the only one reading the lyrics without reading it through the lens of Islamophobia?
In the context of the song it's pretty clear it's about the eternal vs the evanescent. We're not even sure how well that line and others are translated. Given the state of the grammar I would hazard insufficiently. The overall tone all the same is tranquility and bliss.

If it weren't for all the "let's go blow up some infidels with our explosive vests" thing, I might agree. However, given the specific instructions of Mohammed to go out and kill infidels at every opportunity, which seems to be being obeyed by a very large number of Muslims, I can't see the song as anything but a thinly-veiled exhortation to go out and kill people that aren't Muslims.

[Seth]

You're an idiot seth

Reported

woolies and coles (charlou lives in the same area as i i assume charlou works at one or other) christmas carols has fuck all to do with religion it's a constant reminder "This is christmas buy shit from us!".

So what? If the customers like it, and it's my experience that the vast majority of customers like traditional religious Christmas music at Christmas (to one degree or another), and that's what the store wants to play to cater to its customers, it's not up to some low-level employee to change company policy by bitching about it because she's an Atheist.

If their was a popular satanic holiday that masses celebrated there would be fucking inverted crosses and pentagrams all over the fucking store and deicide piped throughout the store speakers. With all the bits and pieces for a festive black mass and ouija board session. Not to mention live virgins (rejected job applicants) in the deli section so you can make sacrfices to the great dark lord satan.

I'm sure there are shops which do exactly that and play Black Sabbath and other death-metal all the time. What business is it of Charlou's what they play in their store? It's none of her business. She complained not because it was pandering to the customers during the Christmas season, she complained because she's an Atheist religious zealot who doesn't want to see or hear ANY public expression of religion, as she clearly stated when she said that all such expressions should be kept at home or in the church.

Well, here's the thing; Atheists don't get to sanitize the public square of all expression of religion, they get to fucking well tolerate the free expression of religion by everyone wherever anyone chooses to peaceably express it in public, just like everyone else does, or they can fuck off to somewhere else or stop their ears. Her arrogance and disrespect for the far-superior rights of others to express and experience religion in public places is petty, childish, arrogant and disgusting. And perfectly typical of Atheist religious zealots, which is why they are hated, reviled, marginalized and kept from positions of political power; because they are intolerant asses who have no problem infringing on the rights of others to forward their anti-theist agenda. Let that happen unopposed and very soon you get Stalin and Mao sending religious people to death camps.

In short its a marketing ploy so they can make money fuck they try to make money out of wogsorthodox christians by selling christmas stuff cheap after christmas.

And that's utterly irrelevant because it's their absolute right to do so.

[Seth]

Different in the fact Onward Christian Soldier is a terrible, terrible, terrible song with no vibe. The type of song sung by no-pussy-getting arseholes who don't have the confidence to get up and dance and enjoy themselves. Just standing there droning.

Same in principle, though. Except the latter is specifically about going off fighting for Christianity where the former isn't anything to do with war, except maybe the internal war we face within ourselves

You don't understand the context of Islam, which has as a fundamental principle and tenet the destruction of the infidels and the expansion of the global Caliphate as a goal that EVERY MUSLIM IS REQUIRED TO ADVANCE however they can, including by killing infidels. So when the song says Allah will destroy all other religions and faiths, it's factually a call to arms for Muslims, who are commanded elsewhere to heed Allah's commands to make war on infidels.

It sounds harmless because you don't have the Islamic teaching and context to understand what the message REALLY means.

And that's the point. Public school teachers are prohibited from either "advancing or inhibiting" religion in the schools, and this song certainly advances Islam, and is therefore inappropriate in a public school choir.

[Seth]

I'm with Ani - after reading the lyrics, there's nothing in there you wouldn't get in any religious song. And the point of it was to practice a song from a different style/culture, so it's the kid's problem if he finds it offensive.

Thought experiment:

What if a Muslim student objected to "Onward Christian Soldiers?" Same result? Different?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsbAba0qLHI

Exactly the same. If someone is offended by a choir singing a cultural song, it's their problem, not the choir's. I mean, that's practically what choirs are for. Nobody is required to sing, and certainly nobody is requited to believe in the lyrics. But what else are you going to do, ban all choirs?

Ban all songs that refer to a deity? Just in case someone singing (or listening) happens to think the song requires them to believe, and is offended?

No, because that's what the law in the United States requires. It's not about the choir offending anyone, it's about a public school teacher using a piece of religious music to "advance or inhibit" ANY religion in a public school context, which is something that all public employees in the United States are forbidden to do.

As I said, if the song had been "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" or "Onward Christian Soldiers" it would be equally inappropriate and unlawful because the teacher is using it to advance Christianity.

And if that story had made the news, every Atheist here would be foaming at the mouth about how the teacher was improperly using the choir to advance Christianity. The hypocrisy is strong here.

[Animavore]

And if that story had made the news, every Atheist here would be foaming at the mouth about how the teacher was improperly using the choir to advance Christianity. The hypocrisy is strong here.

Bullshit. We already said we wouldn't give a shit.

[Seth]

And if that story had made the news, every Atheist here would be foaming at the mouth about how the teacher was improperly using the choir to advance Christianity. The hypocrisy is strong here.

Bullshit. We already said we wouldn't give a shit.

Why don't I believe you?

[Animavore]

And if that story had made the news, every Atheist here would be foaming at the mouth about how the teacher was improperly using the choir to advance Christianity. The hypocrisy is strong here.

Bullshit. We already said we wouldn't give a shit.

Why don't I believe you?

'Cause you are trying to shoehorn me in to fit your preconcieved notion of what an "Atheist" is.

I sung songs with religious connotations in choir myself. It never bothered me except in cases I thought the song was rather lame, not usually the fault of the lyrical content for someone like me who doesn't pay too much attention to what's been said but is rahter into the song as a whole.

Even as I type this I'm listening to the Mercy Seat by Johnny Cash (cover of Nick Cave), as religious as song as your likey to get. A quite powerful one at that.

ETA: I've voiced my dissatisfaction at atheists, usually in America for some reason, being arseholes about things before http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 58#p304958 atheists whining over having to sing religious songs which they've been told they can opt out of, a rather reasonable request, like this Christian kid here is doing, would get the same response from me.

[Seth]

And if that story had made the news, every Atheist here would be foaming at the mouth about how the teacher was improperly using the choir to advance Christianity. The hypocrisy is strong here.

Bullshit. We already said we wouldn't give a shit.

Why don't I believe you?

'Cause you are trying to shoehorn me in to fit your preconcieved notion of what an "Atheist" is.

You said "we." You got a ferret in your pocket or what?

I sung songs with religious connotations in choir myself. It never bothered me except in cases I thought the song was rather lame, not usually the fault of the lyrical content for someone like me who doesn't pay too much attention to what's been said but is rahter into the song as a whole.

Even as I type this I'm listening to the Mercy Seat by Johnny Cash (cover of Nick Cave), as religious as song as your likey to get. A quite powerful one at that.

ETA: I've voiced my dissatisfaction at atheists, usually in America for some reason, being arseholes about things before http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 58#p304958 atheists whining over having to sing religious songs which they've been told they can opt out of, a rather reasonable request, like this Christian kid here is doing, would get the same response from me.

Good for you, but you aren't all Atheists either.