U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

[Tero]

That's because they aren't socialist. It's a hybrid system.

[Coito ergo sum]

That's because they aren't socialist. It's a hybrid system.

You wrote --

Yet in all them socialist countries...maybe not Canada... you can have cataract surgery tomorrow if you pay out of pocket. Instead of waiting 1-2 years.

So, them socialist countries aren't socialist? i didn't call them socialist, you did.

[Seth]

Obamacare increasing health insurance premiums 88% in Ohio -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapotheca ... 8-percent/

Well he should be reducing them by 100% instead ie businesses should not be paying for any healthcare taxes should be bad Obama

It's impossible to reduce them by 100% -- then either nobody would have any insurance, or all health care would be free. The latter is impossible. It costs money to build hospitals, buy equipment, employ doctors and support personnel and such. You can have the costs paid for by taxes, but that doesn't mean the price goes away. It means it's being paid from a different source.

Coito, this is the fundamental economic truth that nitwit socialists are simply unable to comprehend. They ACTUALLY BELIEVE that there's a Money Fairy out there who will magically pay for anything and everything they think they need or want.

You're talking to idiots who haven't the cognitive power to scratch their asses without some bureaucrat telling them to...and how to.

[Woodbutcher]

Obamacare increasing health insurance premiums 88% in Ohio -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapotheca ... 8-percent/

Well he should be reducing them by 100% instead ie businesses should not be paying for any healthcare taxes should be bad Obama

It's impossible to reduce them by 100% -- then either nobody would have any insurance, or all health care would be free. The latter is impossible. It costs money to build hospitals, buy equipment, employ doctors and support personnel and such. You can have the costs paid for by taxes, but that doesn't mean the price goes away. It means it's being paid from a different source.

Coito, this is the fundamental economic truth that nitwit socialists are simply unable to comprehend. They ACTUALLY BELIEVE that there's a Money Fairy out there who will magically pay for anything and everything they think they need or want.

You're talking to idiots who haven't the cognitive power to scratch their asses without some bureaucrat telling them to...and how to.

Like fuck! I pay in installments when I work, and when and if I need doctors care it's taken care of. I don't need to leave my Mastercard number at admitting to receive care. I buy extra insurance if I need to go to a mercenary country like US, for example. My father-in-law had a heart attack in Phoenix. His insurance company hired a plane, two pilots and a nurse to bring him back to Canada, simply because it was cheaper than to pay for care that he required in the States. The doctors deemed him to be strong enough to return. He had a quadruple by-pass operation within a week in Canada. No charge. I pay about $100.00 a month in premiums, probably $50000 altogether in my working life, and probably $150 a month after I retire. That's for most drugs and all of medical care. In an emergency they could airlift me to a medical facility even in the States. All paid for. You have a heart attack and require bypass surgery? Pay cash or fuck off. And you pay a shitload more than what I have paid. So what is so sweet about your system? You pay a shitload more for your drugs, even, than I do. That is the magic of your privatisation. You have no leverage.

[Seth]

Like fuck! I pay in installments when I work, and when and if I need doctors care it's taken care of. I don't need to leave my Mastercard number at admitting to receive care.

Good for you. Neither do I. What's your point? You've just admitted that socialized medicine isn't at all what people think it is. It's not "free health care" at all, it's health care paid for a different way...one which is economically unfeasible and inevitably disastrous to the economy of any society that tries it.

I buy extra insurance if I need to go to a mercenary country like US, for example.

Good, good...proper risk assessment and response. Very nice.

My father-in-law had a heart attack in Phoenix. His insurance company hired a plane, two pilots and a nurse to bring him back to Canada, simply because it was cheaper than to pay for care that he required in the States. The doctors deemed him to be strong enough to return.

Lucky man. My congratulations that he survived.

He had a quadruple by-pass operation within a week in Canada.

In Phoenix he'd have been in surgery the next morning. Or that day if it was severe enough. He'd have gone straight from the ER to the OR without delay in most cases.

No charge.

Wrong. Completely and totally wrong. This is the cognitive disconnect that socialized medicine advocates just cannot get past. Your father's medical care probably cost more than a hundred thousand dollars. It's just that HE didn't have to pay for it, everybody else in Canada did. Did he, or you ask everybody else in Canada if they wanted or could afford to pay for his surgery? No? I didn't think so.

I pay about $100.00 a month in premiums, probably $50000 altogether in my working life, and probably $150 a month after I retire. That's for most drugs and all of medical care. In an emergency they could airlift me to a medical facility even in the States. All paid for.

...by somebody else.

You have a heart attack and require bypass surgery? Pay cash or fuck off.

Nope. I'll get the surgery faster and better than your dad did. Will I then owe the hospital money? Yes, I will, but why should I expect NOT to owe them money? They provided a life-saving service for me at my request, so I have a legal and moral obligation to pay for that contractual agreement.

If in the end I cannot pay them, I can declare bankruptcy and be relieved of that debt. The hospital loses out (though not really) but SO DO I. My motive to stay healthy so I don't need a bypass, and either save money or buy insurance against the eventuality that I will need one is the stigma and financial effects of declaring bankruptcy, which involves me losing all the nice "stuff" that I've spent a lifetime acquiring so my waning years will be comfortable and enjoyable.

I don't want that to happen, so I have three choices that are ethical; First, I can decline the service. Perhaps I'll suffer and die, but that's an ethical choice if I cannot afford treatment; second, I can put money away in anticipation of future medical needs or contract privately with an insurance company to compensate me should I fall ill; or third, I can cast myself on the mercy of the community and beg them for charitable VOLUNTARY assistance.

Those are the only three ethical alternatives. Socialized medicine is pure unadulterated theft from everybody who has to pay for your treatment who doesn't know you, never will know you, and has never accepted financial responsibility for your medical care voluntarily.

I'm very happy your dad made it, but if the cost of his making it is a diminuition of MY medical care finances, then I'm terribly sorry, but he's going to have to die, because I don't know your dad, and I've not accepted financial responsibility for his health care and I need all my assets to provide for MY medical needs. I have none available for his use. So sorry, but that's just how it is. Sometimes you die.

And I won't expect, and indeed won't accept that the government can burden you or your father for the costs of MY medical care. That's an ethical decision I made long ago. But it's also a matter of personal pride and privacy. When I demand that the government provide me with medical care I make an implicit contract that the government is allowed to intrude on my medical privacy and determine what care I am allowed, when it will be provided, and to what extent. I also implicitly grant the government the power of oversight when it comes to my lifestyle so that it can reduce its exposure to liability for my medical care.

And that is an intolerable intrusion on my personal liberty and sovereignty.

I absolutely will never consent to the IRS having access or control over one iota of my medical information or care and they will have to bring many machine guns if they propose to try to force me to give them that control.

That is my right as a free American.

You see, I'm an ethical and honest person. I don't steal from others under the rubric of "socialism," I pay my own way in life. I always have, and I always will. When I am no longer able to do that, I may appeal to the charity of my friends, whom I have munificently supported in their times of need, for their assistance and support. They are free to give it or refuse it. In the end I will die, but I will die an honest and honorable man, not a selfish, greedy Socialist thief.

And you pay a shitload more than what I have paid. So what is so sweet about your system?

I don't have to live as a freeloading, thieving enslaver of others. I get to live free and with a clear conscience. And I get to die that way. I know the concept of ethical conduct and honor is foreign to you, but there are still people like me who walk the walk and don't just talk the talk.

[Woodbutcher]

Seth. You have a very twisted definition of theft. I pay health insurance so that I can have coverage, even in excess of what I have paid. It is exactly the same as paying any other insurance. You make one payment on car insurance, crash it, and you're covered.
Nobody thinks that healthcare is free, I don't know where you get such a childish ideas from. NRA? Good for you for not accepting handouts, easy when you don't need them. You are aware that everybody pays for their healthcare when they work, are you? Then why are you against it? You seem to think that you are something special in the society. Well, so is everybody else. If you do not like to participate in the society, join a cult of likeminded people and form your own commune where you only get what you pay for. That was how things were in the middle ages.
By the way, if people think that no one cares, they take what they need by force. That is why the rate of crime is so high in the US. People feel that might is right. Enjoy your delusion of freedom. You are more shackled than I am. And I earn my money by working, I did not inherit it.

[Tero]

Woody,it's not the cost or the quality and all that bothering Seth. He does not want the Gubment collecting his colonoscopy pictures.

[Woodbutcher]

Woody,it's not the cost or the quality and all that bothering Seth. He does not want the Gubment collecting his colonoscopy pictures.

I know. His head would show up in the colonoscopy pictures and he'd no longer have his privacy to act as a cyberbully. He'd lose his purpose in life.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Got a letter from the VA today, explaining how the ACA would affect my VA benefits. No effect. Reading between the lines I see this mass mailing as an attempt to scotch rumors that the VA will shut down if Obamacare is fully enacted. There is no limit to the slander the Republicans will go to in order to keep their owners rich, is there?

[Seth]

Seth. You have a very twisted definition of theft.

Oh, I don't think so:

theft
noun \ˈtheft\
Definition of THEFT
1a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it

My labor and the fruits thereof do not belong to you or anyone else, they are rightfully mine, so taking or removing any of it without my consent deprives me of both my labor and my property. That's theft, and you're ipso facto and per se a thief before and after the fact if you accept redistributionary benefits from a government which has seized my labor and property from me by threat of force and without my consent.

I pay health insurance so that I can have coverage, even in excess of what I have paid. It is exactly the same as paying any other insurance. You make one payment on car insurance, crash it, and you're covered.

Correct. But the difference is that I am buying it from a private vendor whose profits depend on making good risk assessments, which includes denying coverage to poor drivers so as not to raise the price for its other customers, whom I can quit paying if the cost exceeds the benefit to me.

You are stealing other people's money under socialized medicine, money that they are compelled by force to pay. It's highly unlikely that if you have a major illness or accident that what you paid in will come anywhere close to what others will pay out to make you healthy...or just keep you alive a bit longer.

There is no such market constraint on socialized medicine because the government doesn't have to make a profit to stay in business, therefore it does not have to control costs because it has (or thinks it has) access to the virtually unlimited pool of OPM from the taxpayers. This inevitably and always ends up in waste, fraud, inefficiency and rationing of services as the bureaucrat leeches that infest ALL government suck the OPM out of the system to feather their own nests and sate their own insatiable appetites for power and wealth.

Nobody thinks that healthcare is free, I don't know where you get such a childish ideas from.

How about from the nitwits who post "I got X free from the NHS?"

NRA? Good for you for not accepting handouts, easy when you don't need them.

Who says I don't need them. I'm a diabetic with asthma, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, thyroid deficiency, chronic respiratory infections, bad knees and a bad back that can put me in bed for months if I'm not careful.

So I'm careful, and prudent, and I don't get or do things I'd like to do because I have to put the money in a medical savings account so I won't have to take handouts.

Just yesterday I had to pay more than $300 for a single one-month supply of my asthma medication because the mail-order pharmacy I usually use, which gets the same medicine for me at literally 1/10th the cost, screwed up my order and I ran out.

I didn't expect Obama or anyone else to pay for it.

You are aware that everybody pays for their healthcare when they work, are you? Then why are you against it?

I'm not, if that's what they CHOOSE to do. If they choose to contract with a private company for health care (HMO) I'm absolutely fine with that. It's when I am not allowed to choose that I bridle. If I don't mind paying premiums that go mostly to the sickest 15% of my risk pool because I'm confident that the company will meet its contractual obligations to me should I need care, that's my choice to make. And if they don't perform to contract I can sue them and punish them for breach of contract.

I cannot sue the government. It has "sovereign immunity" which prohibits me from making a civil claim for damages without the government's permission to do so. Nor can I opt out of being taxed to pay for government-run health care. And my taxes are not being used to benefit ME, they are being used to pay the bills of sick people today, on the promise that somebody else will pay mine if I get sick.

"I'd gladly give you a dollar Wednesday for a hamburger today." Wimpy

Fuck that. I don't agree to be coerced into paying for someone else's problems based on a government "promise" to take care of me eventually. Only a fool would take the word of government that it will do what it promises to do. That's why I constructed my life to avoid paying into Social Security as much as possible. It's not likely to be there when I reach the asymptotic age that SS requires, so I opted out when I was 21 and haven't put enough in to even qualify for minimum benefits.

I kept that money for MY use, and it's earning interest until I need it.

You seem to think that you are something special in the society. Well, so is everybody else. If you do not like to participate in the society, join a cult of likeminded people and form your own commune where you only get what you pay for. That was how things were in the middle ages.

Nonsense. And your fallacious appeals to common practice and popular opinion are rejected.

By the way, if people think that no one cares, they take what they need by force.

They can try. But then again that's why I exercise my 2nd Amendment rights absolutely every day, without fail.

That is why the rate of crime is so high in the US. People feel that might is right.

"People" have always felt that way. It's a function of our nature as living creatures and evolution. It occurs in every culture on earth since the beginning of humankind and before.

That's why other "people" need to be armed and prepared to show such predators that it's not true. Particularly the Marxist fuckwads who think that my labor and property are the just and rightful property of the collective. There's but one solution to that sort of "need"-rationalized initiation of force and fraud. And I remain well prepared to execute that option whenever and wherever I deem it necessary to do so.

Enjoy your delusion of freedom. You are more shackled than I am. And I earn my money by working, I did not inherit it.

So did I. I also inherited the fruits of my ancestor's labor because that's what they wanted for me. For that I'm very grateful and will pass some of it along to the next generation to make their lives better.

Sucks you don't have any rich relatives who like you.

But that's no excuse for expecting me to pay for your healthcare...or any part of it, even a sou's worth.

It's YOUR fucking problem, not mine.

[Seth]

Woody,it's not the cost or the quality and all that bothering Seth. He does not want the Gubment collecting his colonoscopy pictures.

Wrong. It's all three, cost, quality and privacy.

But mostly it's about being coerced into paying for what other people need by the innate force and power of government against my will. I don't work for other people. I'm not their slave. They can't have what I have and they cannot command my labor.

And I don't give a flying fuck who they are or what their rationalization is or how pitiful their plight.

Come to me with humility, goodwill and a polite request for help and I'll consider it and help you if I can and judge you worthy of my labor and property.

Come at me with the Mace of State or any other weapon and demand what's mine and I'm going to shoot you dead on the doorstep, no matter who you are or why you think you have a right to steal from me.

It's just exactly that simple.

[Woodbutcher]

Seth, you simply are not suited to function in a civilised society. You have the mind set of a preteen, still adoring the Tom Mixes and the frontiersmen, making their way alone and unaided. Sucks to be you. You don't fit anywhere in the society, you can't keep a girlfriend, and you protect your privacy so that you can be a cyberbully and pretend that you amount to anything. You are a very pathetic person. Goodbye.

[Seth]

Seth, you simply are not suited to function in a civilised society.

Of course I am, and have been doing so for 59 years quite successfully.

You have the mind set of a preteen, still adoring the Tom Mixes and the frontiersmen, making their way alone and unaided.

No, that's just your idiotic and stupid idea of who I am, which is nowhere near the truth.

Sucks to be you.

It's great to be me! I get to go where I please, when I please, without asking anyone's permission, I pay my own way, I don't mooch off of others, I don't steal from others, and I carry whatever number of guns it pleases me to carry whenever and wherever I like, except jails, courts, federal buildings and airport secure areas, so I just avoid those places as much as possible.

You don't fit anywhere in the society, you can't keep a girlfriend,

Go fuck yourself. I have a date in Tulsa with a new girlfriend next week. Quite a looker too.

and you protect your privacy so that you can be a cyberbully and pretend that you amount to anything.

Awwww, poor little baby, did your feelings get hurt? Pussy. I protect my privacy because of asshats like you, a few of whom have been deranged enough to make it worth my while to protect my safety and my privacy.

You are a very pathetic person. Goodbye.

Fuck. Don't I wish. I should be so lucky as to get a pathetic loser like you to leave me alone. You'll be back because your brain isn't large enough or complex enough to allow you to resist. You're a useful idiot, nothing more.

[Kristie]

Seth, you simply are not suited to function in a civilised society. You have the mind set of a preteen, still adoring the Tom Mixes and the frontiersmen, making their way alone and unaided. Sucks to be you. You don't fit anywhere in the society, you can't keep a girlfriend, and you protect your privacy so that you can be a cyberbully and pretend that you amount to anything. You are a very pathetic person. Goodbye.

[Woodbutcher]

Poor Seth. Like fuck you have a date. Your dates are with your hand alone. It's good to know that you inherited your money, that means that you are a freeloading shit who never earned his keep . You are living with stolen money yourself. What a fucking loser!
I'm not mad, my feelings haven't been hurt, and you are a useful stupid chewtoy. If you think you can hurt my feelings you are sadly mistaken. I play dweebs like you for fun. You are a troll and not a smart one at that. Remember to switch hands jacking off, Seth. For you it would be like having a new girlfriend.