Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:10 pm

tattuchu wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:And the point I made was is that considering the political climate since the summer people would have gone just as nuts if he hadn't won - in fact Trump actively seeded the ground for this kind of nuttery in the event that he wasn't elected. People pointed this out before the election. I'm not laying the entire blame on Trump, and to assume otherwise is to ignore the point. I'm just saying Trump's organisation (him, his surrogates, his PR team, his campaign staff, etc) have been, and are, active participants and a significant contributory factor to the terms by which the US's political debate is currently taking place - including intimidation, threats, and violence.
:this:
:this:

Though it shouldn't even have to be said because it's so fucking obvious :ddpan:

:this:
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:31 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:And the point I made was is that considering the political climate since the summer people would have gone just as nuts if he hadn't won - in fact Trump actively seeded the ground for this kind of nuttery in the event that he wasn't elected. People pointed this out before the election. I'm not laying the entire blame on Trump, and to assume otherwise is to ignore the point. I'm just saying Trump's organisation (him, his surrogates, his PR team, his campaign staff, etc) have been, and are, active participants and a significant contributory factor to the terms by which the US's political debate is currently taking place - including intimidation, threats, and violence.
Yes, but when Democrats were calling for civility a couple of years ago, their supporters were resolute that "this sort of thing" is what the bad Republicans do... not us...we're the thoughtful, intelligent, calm Democrats, who would never stoop to "martial rhetoric" or rude and uncivil behavior. Tuck Frump!
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by tattuchu » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:26 pm

pErvin wrote:
tattuchu wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:And the point I made was is that considering the political climate since the summer people would have gone just as nuts if he hadn't won - in fact Trump actively seeded the ground for this kind of nuttery in the event that he wasn't elected. People pointed this out before the election. I'm not laying the entire blame on Trump, and to assume otherwise is to ignore the point. I'm just saying Trump's organisation (him, his surrogates, his PR team, his campaign staff, etc) have been, and are, active participants and a significant contributory factor to the terms by which the US's political debate is currently taking place - including intimidation, threats, and violence.
:this:
:this:

Though it shouldn't even have to be said because it's so fucking obvious :ddpan:

:this:
:this:
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Jason » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:51 pm

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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:14 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:And the point I made was is that considering the political climate since the summer people would have gone just as nuts if he hadn't won - in fact Trump actively seeded the ground for this kind of nuttery in the event that he wasn't elected. People pointed this out before the election. I'm not laying the entire blame on Trump, and to assume otherwise is to ignore the point. I'm just saying Trump's organisation (him, his surrogates, his PR team, his campaign staff, etc) have been, and are, active participants and a significant contributory factor to the terms by which the US's political debate is currently taking place - including intimidation, threats, and violence.
Yes, but when Democrats were calling for civility a couple of years ago, their supporters were resolute that "this sort of thing" is what the bad Republicans do... not us...we're the thoughtful, intelligent, calm Democrats, who would never stoop to "martial rhetoric" or rude and uncivil behavior. Tuck Frump!
Which Democrats are using martial rhetoric, what is rude exactly, and what exactly is uncivil behaviour, and which Democrats have been rude and/or advocated uncivil behaviour, and how?

You're casting this at the door of the Democrat party, yet when Trump supporters (like White Supremacists for example) are rude or advocate uncivil behaviour (re the Boston Globe article I posted earlier) you're quick to disavow the idea that those people have anything to do with Trump or represent the mainstream view of Republicans.

You still avoided the point I was making though. Never mind.

Much of Trump's rhetoric has been incredibly divisive. It's not surprising therefore that people are incredibly and starkly divided. If he's serious about his one-nation agenda he's got to reach out to those who feel unrepresented by him, just as he reached out during the campaign to those who felt unrepresented by the previous administration. He can't Make American Great Again if he's only going to take half the nation on that journey - or in his case not even the majority of citizens who cast a vote. That's what people are really worried about: that he'll govern for the benefit of his friends and supporters, for the benefit of the few rather than the many. That path will only lead to ever deeper and wider political polarisation - more 'government for us and our own, but not for you and your ilk'.

My personal feeling is that those who want to stuff it to 'the man' at the monent should make every effort towards peaceful protest, and if they're feeling like they'd like to turn over a few cop cars then just stay home and think about turning that energy towards supporting their own communities - in the meantime wait and see how thing pan out. Nonethelesd, social, political, and civil unrest doesn't come from nowhere and if people feel they've got more to lose by remaining silent than by protesting they will, in the end, find their way onto the streets. Being outraged by protests and declaring protesting and protesters automatically morally flawed is the first step to authoritarianism, and the second step is passing laws to stop them.
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:54 pm

They're not using martial rhetoric... they're using flagpoles, batteries, eggs and fists..... just like during the election.... http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/01 ... rotesters/

It's Trump's fault, though.

This notion that "social and political unrest don't come from nowhere, and "people feel they've got more to lose" etc..... that can't just be applied to protesters on the Left. If the Trump supporters feel they have somethign to lose, and have the same kind of outrage as the Lefties beating people up, would you be as understanding? Or, would violence by Trump supporters be the kind of thing that's intolerable in a free, democratic society, while violence from Trump's opponents we ought to understand as not coming out of nowhere and being a response to the climate created by Trump in the first place....
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Tero » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:07 pm

we never got race right in this country
International disaster, gonna be a blaster
Gonna rearrange our lives
International disaster, send for the master
Don't wait to see the white of his eyes
International disaster, international disaster
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Forty Two wrote:They're not using martial rhetoric... they're using flagpoles, batteries, eggs and fists..... just like during the election.... http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/01 ... rotesters/

It's Trump's fault, though.

This notion that "social and political unrest don't come from nowhere, and "people feel they've got more to lose" etc..... that can't just be applied to protesters on the Left. If the Trump supporters feel they have somethign to lose, and have the same kind of outrage as the Lefties beating people up, would you be as understanding? Or, would violence by Trump supporters be the kind of thing that's intolerable in a free, democratic society, while violence from Trump's opponents we ought to understand as not coming out of nowhere and being a response to the climate created by Trump in the first place....
As I've pointed out to you before I'm not here to defend the Democrat party against the charge that they're inciting a riot. I basically think that charge is a straw man. Nor is my objection to political violence only limited to those who's view I disagree with, and to suggest otherwise is, once again, to avoid and/or miss the point.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:11 pm

A straw man is an argument created by one's opposition which they then refute, and they use that as proof that your true argument is incorrect.

How is the rioting that I've referred to a "straw man." It's not an argument ,nor have I attributed it to anyone. it's just what those people are doing.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Strontium Dog » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:36 pm

Forty Two, do you think an appropriate response to the Nazis in 1939 would have been just to let them get on with it? Or were we right to utilise force to stop them?
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:12 am

Forty Two wrote:They're not using martial rhetoric... they're using flagpoles, batteries, eggs and fists..... just like during the election.... http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/01 ... rotesters/
That's individuals, though. You are claiming that influential Democrats are inciting violence. Which one's and what did they say?
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:16 am

Strontium Dog wrote:Forty Two, do you think an appropriate response to the Nazis in 1939 would have been just to let them get on with it? Or were we right to utilise force to stop them?
Don't bother. I've had this debate with him before. His naive ideology contends that sitting down and talking it out is all that is needed.
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:29 am

Forty Two wrote:A straw man is an argument created by one's opposition which they then refute, and they use that as proof that your true argument is incorrect.
  • Brian Peacock wrote:Which Democrats are using martial rhetoric, what is rude exactly, and what exactly is uncivil behaviour, and which Democrats have been rude and/or advocated uncivil behaviour, and how?
Forty Two wrote:How is the rioting that I've referred to a "straw man." It's not an argument ,nor have I attributed it to anyone. it's just what those people are doing.
Your inference that this is Democrat rioting, thus justifying your criticism of Democrats, is the straw man.

This list of straightforward questions you're not prepared to address or issues you're not prepared to engage with is totting up. What is problematic about acknowledging that in the last 12 months of the campaign Trump's machine upped the ante as far as 'marshal rhetoric' was concerned? Why continue to ignore my qualifications that the attitudes and actions of those who resort to rioting as a political tool should be discouraged, from whatever quarter in almost all circumstances?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by JimC » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:49 am

Forty Two wrote:They're not using martial rhetoric... they're using flagpoles, batteries, eggs and fists..... just like during the election.... http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/01 ... rotesters/

It's Trump's fault, though.

This notion that "social and political unrest don't come from nowhere, and "people feel they've got more to lose" etc..... that can't just be applied to protesters on the Left. If the Trump supporters feel they have somethign to lose, and have the same kind of outrage as the Lefties beating people up, would you be as understanding? Or, would violence by Trump supporters be the kind of thing that's intolerable in a free, democratic society, while violence from Trump's opponents we ought to understand as not coming out of nowhere and being a response to the climate created by Trump in the first place....
"They" is a tiny minority of the vast number of people who protested peacefully today and yesterday...
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Re: Democrat Rhetoric Putting Lives at Risk

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:29 am

I see Sean Spicer is vociferously disputing reports of low public attendance at the inauguration, angrily chiding journalists for deliberately misrepresenting the size of the crowd and of framing their photos and TV reports to make it look like fewer people were there.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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