Day care worker may be the worst human ever.

[Coito ergo sum]

Rape is clearly not as bad as death/murder since you'd still be living after the rape. Just saying.

In a purely academic sense, yes.

However, from the perspective of the victim, there are clearly things that happen in life that can effect them in a way that is worse than death. The evidence of that is that sometimes a rape or abuse victim will commit suicide, which means that to them they preferred to die rather than to live with the effects of issue.

And, if a person did that to my daughter, I would certainly kill them if I had the chance, and I would want to do so whether I died or got the death penalty, because some things, to me, are worse than death.

Obviously psychology and mental health are not your strong suits.

I never claimed it to be. However, whether something is worse than death to the victim is not something that either you or I can determine for them. We can say that we think death would be worse, but if they feel otherwise then that's how they feel.

No one who commits suicide are in their right mind. Committing suicide is not rational, having been raped or not.

As I say on occasion, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

There you may be wrong. For example, take the example of a person who is rendered paralyzed from the neck down due to an attack, with a rape included or not. That person may rationally judge life not worth living at that point, and may prefer to die instead. Further, elderly, infirm people living in constant pain may also feel that they have no better course of action than to be relieved of said pain.

We cannot necessarily decide for them that objectively, living would be better. It's not an objective analysis.

However, the point is not whether living or dying under given circumstances if rationally a better course of action. Whether someone is an awful person can be judged based on an assessment of their character. And, there may be guys, for example, who killed hundreds of people in wartime and we don't judge them to be awful, but someone in his basement lusting after one year olds, but not yet having acted on it, may well be judged as worse than the killer of 100s, due to the circumstances and their mindset. Who should I judge less favorably, the pilot of the Enola Gay, or a child rapist? I choose the latter to direct my scorn.

[Audley Strange]

So, rape is worse than death now?

Many rape victims say yes.

Yeah. And they're wrong.

As a therapist I've had many clients who have been raped, get depressed and want to commit suicide.

What do you think I tell them?

"Oh yeah, rape is totally worse than death. Might as well just commit suicide then."

That would make me a pretty shitty therapist wouldn't it?

Being raped is not worse than being dead, ever. Period.

I disagree.

I'm so glad you took the time to explain why.

Do me a favor and don't counsel any rape victims, okay?

Well I didn't explain why because I thought it was obvious. Still since the obvious clearly escapes you...

There is such a thing as mercy killing and a concept of euthanasia. There is no concept called "mercy rape". To imply, as you did, that someone who is in agony and wishes to die and is given that wish would be better off being fucked ragged by a gang of strangers because death is worse than rape period, suggests to me that you are the one who should be nowhere near rape victims or most of humanity. Unless, that is, you ran the words of your supposed occupation together and are looking for a reduced sentence.

[Collector1337]

However, whether something is worse than death to the victim is not something that either you or I can determine for them. We can say that we think death would be worse, but if they feel otherwise then that's how they feel.

No, actually I can.

Therapists practice a technique called "reframing." Look it up.

There you may be wrong. For example, take the example of a person who is rendered paralyzed from the neck down due to an attack, with a rape included or not. That person may rationally judge life not worth living at that point, and may prefer to die instead. Further, elderly, infirm people living in constant pain may also feel that they have no better course of action than to be relieved of said pain.

We cannot necessarily decide for them that objectively, living would be better. It's not an objective analysis.

Again, yes we can. Living is always better than death.

As an atheist who doesn't believe in an afterlife, and that "this is it," then choosing to die would be pretty stupid wouldn't it?

However, the point is not whether living or dying under given circumstances if rationally a better course of action. Whether someone is an awful person can be judged based on an assessment of their character. And, there may be guys, for example, who killed hundreds of people in wartime and we don't judge them to be awful, but someone in his basement lusting after one year olds, but not yet having acted on it, may well be judged as worse than the killer of 100s, due to the circumstances and their mindset. Who should I judge less favorably, the pilot of the Enola Gay, or a child rapist? I choose the latter to direct my scorn.

Sounds like you need to think about less where "to direct your scorn" and more be a little more positive.

[Collector1337]

Well I didn't explain why because I thought it was obvious. Still since the obvious clearly escapes you...

Yeah, because me having to read your mind is totally "obvious."

There is such a thing as mercy killing and a concept of euthanasia.

No shit. When you're old and in constant pain, not a rape victim.

There is no concept called "mercy rape".

Only when you have sex with someone.

To imply, as you did, that someone who is in agony and wishes to die and is given that wish would be better off being fucked ragged by a gang of strangers because death is worse than rape period, suggests to me that you are the one who should be nowhere near rape victims or most of humanity. Unless, that is, you ran the words of your supposed occupation together and are looking for a reduced sentence.

Huh? You think I implied that? You high?

I was talking about rape victims not committing suicide, not some asinine situation you thought up in your twisted mind.

I'm talking about being raped in the past, not getting raped in the future like anyone has a choice about getting raped.

You are seriously warped.

[Audley Strange]

You know what. I was wrong. You didn't imply it you outright stated it, and you were not talking about rape victims.

You said this...

Rape is clearly not as bad as death/murder since you'd still be living after the rape. Just saying.

And this.

Being raped is not worse than being dead, ever. Period.

So dipshit, backtrack and insult all you like. You made two absolute statements, I even tried to clarify your position but you stuck to it. You never left any opening in those statements for different scenarios. I'm not twisted or warped. You just spouted off some ignorant shit. You cannot say that someone who is seriously ill and has been voluntary euthanised is in a worse situation that someone who is tortured and gang raped. You claim to be a therapist, who for the fucking Taliban?

[Collector1337]

You got this:

To imply, as you did, that someone who is in agony and wishes to die and is given that wish would be better off being fucked ragged by a gang of strangers because death is worse than rape period,

From that:

Rape is clearly not as bad as death/murder since you'd still be living after the rape. Just saying.

And this.

Being raped is not worse than being dead, ever. Period.

And then you say it again here:

You cannot say that someone who is seriously ill and has been voluntary euthanised is in a worse situation that someone who is tortured and gang raped.

What the fuck?

When did I ever mention euthanasia?

When did I mention torture?

Are you advocating that rape victims commit suicide?

Are you comparing psychological pain with physical pain?

Why are you changing the subject with your ridiculous scenario?

Am I really arguing with an atheist, who doesn't believe in an afterlife, and self-proclaimed rationalist why you shouldn't commit suicide?

[Audley Strange]

No you're not. Again you made two absolute statements without qualification. Euthanasia tends to lead to death. Therefore if you say Death is always worse that rape, you are saying Euthanasia is worse than rape. I am not changing the subject, I am pointing out there are qualifiers to your statements that you never made. The scenario I'm pointing out is only ridiculous if you apply your statements to them. That is exactly my point.

I am not advocating rape victims commit suicide nor comparing psychological pain with physical pain. You were not arguing that rape victims should commit suicide. I am trying to get you to admit that your posts were glib and sloppy.

Finally, if you are a therapist two questions. Are you now claiming there is no circumstances for committing suicide that are rational?

And, more curious. I recall cognitive reframing being used on folk who had chronic depression but I'm actually interested in how you could use it for let's say an elven year old who's been sexually abused by a parent over a long term. It's been a while I admit, so I'm not up to date on current therapeutic literature but I can't figure out how that would work. How would one take a physical and mental betrayal of a child and put a positive spin on that?

Fell free to answer or dismiss my questions.

[Collector1337]

No you're not. Again you made two absolute statements without qualification. Euthanasia tends to lead to death. Therefore if you say Death is always worse that rape, you are saying Euthanasia is worse than rape. I am not changing the subject, I am pointing out there are qualifiers to your statements that you never made. The scenario I'm pointing out is only ridiculous if you apply your statements to them. That is exactly my point.

You clearly like arguing, just for the sake of arguing.

If you would have read the whole thread, you would have seen when CES corrected my wording accurately, changing "death" to "murder." So, getting raped is better than getting murdered.

Your eagerness to bring up the very off-topic subject of euthanasia, which is obviously an exception (and a debatable topic in and of itself) and has nothing to do with rape and the psychological trauma that goes with it. I find your effort to think of an extreme exception to suicide, when we're talking about rape, to be very augmentative to the point of you just wanting to feel right, so you can feel good about yourself, to be hilarious.

I am not advocating rape victims commit suicide nor comparing psychological pain with physical pain. You were not arguing that rape victims should commit suicide. I am trying to get you to admit that your posts were glib and sloppy.

Yup, looks like my assessment is accurate.

Finally, if you are a therapist two questions. Are you now claiming there is no circumstances for committing suicide that are rational?

Now claiming? This is the first time in the thread that question has been asked.

And, more curious. I recall cognitive reframing being used on folk who had chronic depression but I'm actually interested in how you could use it for let's say an elven year old who's been sexually abused by a parent over a long term. It's been a while I admit, so I'm not up to date on current therapeutic literature but I can't figure out how that would work. How would one take a physical and mental betrayal of a child and put a positive spin on that?

Fell free to answer or dismiss my questions.

Yes, clearly you are not up to date.

#1: Reframing is used with everyone, regardless of diagnosis.

#2: Reframing is to change perception, not facts.

[Warren Dew]

So, rape is worse than death now?

Many rape victims say yes.

Yeah. And they're wrong.

As a therapist I've had many clients who have been raped, get depressed and want to commit suicide.

What does that have to do with anything? Obviously suicide doesn't change the fact that you were raped.

The claim is that being raped is worse than being killed, not that being raped is worse than being both raped and killed. Just because the latter is untrue does not mean that the former is untrue.

[Warren Dew]

No one who commits suicide are in their right mind. Committing suicide is not rational, having been raped or not.

On the tangent of suicide irrespective of rape, I think that's a very questionable judgement. Depending on how one values one's loved ones relative to oneself, suicide has a possibility of being rational whenever it will improve the well being of one's loved ones. That doesn't happen much in modern society, but in the general case, it could happen - for example if one's health deteriorated to the point where one was a severe burden on relatives, or if the only way in which one's loved ones were likely to survive was through use of one's own life insurance payout.

I think the idea that suicide is irrational is drawn largely from people who have survived suicide - or to put it another way, who have failed at suicide. There's strong evidence from these people that they don't really want to die - that their suicides are more of a call for help. However, these ideas may not be representative of the people who succeed at suicide; we don't know what they were really thinking, for obvious reasons. It may be that the rationally suicidal simply tend to succeed, unlike the irrationally suicidal.

[Warren Dew]

No. Why would you think so?

I thought it might be a bleak joke about consent. My apologies.

I see where you were coming from now. I guess that was poor wording on my part.

[Audley Strange]

No you're not. Again you made two absolute statements without qualification. Euthanasia tends to lead to death. Therefore if you say Death is always worse that rape, you are saying Euthanasia is worse than rape. I am not changing the subject, I am pointing out there are qualifiers to your statements that you never made. The scenario I'm pointing out is only ridiculous if you apply your statements to them. That is exactly my point.

You clearly like arguing, just for the sake of arguing.

Sometimes yes. More often than not I like to make sure people who are obviously talking shit are aware of it.

If you would have read the whole thread, you would have seen when CES corrected my wording accurately, changing "death" to "murder." So, getting raped is better than getting murdered.

Christ on a bike are you kidding? That was me.

Your eagerness to bring up the very off-topic subject of euthanasia, which is obviously an exception (and a debatable topic in and of itself) and has nothing to do with rape and the psychological trauma that goes with it. I find your effort to think of an extreme exception to suicide, when we're talking about rape, to be very augmentative to the point of you just wanting to feel right, so you can feel good about yourself, to be hilarious.

So you admit you were wrong with your absolute statement and that there are cases were rape is worse than death? Or would you rather just resort to irrelevant ad hominem to make you feel better about yourself?

Finally, if you are a therapist two questions. Are you now claiming there is no circumstances for committing suicide that are rational?

Now claiming? This is the first time in the thread that question has been asked.
[/quote]

Are you being wilfully obtuse? You claimed that suicide was never rational, another absolute statement. Again I am asking you to clarify.

And, more curious. I recall cognitive reframing being used on folk who had chronic depression but I'm actually interested in how you could use it for let's say an elven year old who's been sexually abused by a parent over a long term. It's been a while I admit, so I'm not up to date on current therapeutic literature but I can't figure out how that would work. How would one take a physical and mental betrayal of a child and put a positive spin on that?

Fell free to answer or dismiss my questions.

Yes, clearly you are not up to date.

#1: Reframing is used with everyone, regardless of diagnosis.

#2: Reframing is to change perception, not facts.[/quote]

Really. Okay. We're done. Don't bother answering my other questions above.

[Collector1337]

What does that have to do with anything? Obviously suicide doesn't change the fact that you were raped.

Umm, duh. I'm saying it's not a reason to commit suicide.

The claim is that being raped is worse than being killed, not that being raped is worse than being both raped and killed. Just because the latter is untrue does not mean that the former is untrue.

Yeah, duh.

[Collector1337]

No you're not. Again you made two absolute statements without qualification. Euthanasia tends to lead to death. Therefore if you say Death is always worse that rape, you are saying Euthanasia is worse than rape. I am not changing the subject, I am pointing out there are qualifiers to your statements that you never made. The scenario I'm pointing out is only ridiculous if you apply your statements to them. That is exactly my point.

You clearly like arguing, just for the sake of arguing.

Sometimes yes. More often than not I like to make sure people who are obviously talking shit are aware of it.

If you would have read the whole thread, you would have seen when CES corrected my wording accurately, changing "death" to "murder." So, getting raped is better than getting murdered.

Christ on a bike are you kidding? That was me.

Your eagerness to bring up the very off-topic subject of euthanasia, which is obviously an exception (and a debatable topic in and of itself) and has nothing to do with rape and the psychological trauma that goes with it. I find your effort to think of an extreme exception to suicide, when we're talking about rape, to be very augmentative to the point of you just wanting to feel right, so you can feel good about yourself, to be hilarious.

So you admit you were wrong with your absolute statement and that there are cases were rape is worse than death? Or would you rather just resort to irrelevant ad hominem to make you feel better about yourself?

Finally, if you are a therapist two questions. Are you now claiming there is no circumstances for committing suicide that are rational?

Now claiming? This is the first time in the thread that question has been asked.

Are you being wilfully obtuse? You claimed that suicide was never rational, another absolute statement. Again I am asking you to clarify.

And, more curious. I recall cognitive reframing being used on folk who had chronic depression but I'm actually interested in how you could use it for let's say an elven year old who's been sexually abused by a parent over a long term. It's been a while I admit, so I'm not up to date on current therapeutic literature but I can't figure out how that would work. How would one take a physical and mental betrayal of a child and put a positive spin on that?

Fell free to answer or dismiss my questions.

Yes, clearly you are not up to date.

#1: Reframing is used with everyone, regardless of diagnosis.

#2: Reframing is to change perception, not facts.[/quote]

Really. Okay. We're done. Don't bother answering my other questions above.[/quote]

Name a case where being raped is worse than being murdered.

[Azathoth]

Name a case where being raped is worse than being murdered.

How about life in prison being your cellmate's bitch?