Let's sentence Edward Snowden to....Russia!

[Audley Strange]

Okay if announcing to the world that the NSA were involved in a clandestine surveillance program of it's own citizenry is, in comparison to what he did, a trivial thing, what the fuck are you saying he's guilty of that's so much worse? Did he fly the planes into 9/11 while raping the retarded Honey Boo Boo in a Soviet flag?

I am in no doubt he was a troublesome and opportunistic wanker, but if nothing else it shows how shit the intelligence services are if they can't even screen such people rather than hire them. I've heard some iffy things about Snowden, but Ian you make it sound like he's more fiendish that 12 zombie Hitlers and the U.S. regime is a poor frail besieged victim brutally deflowered by the monster.

[Coito ergo sum]

How can Snowden be living on private charity? Don't they know that every country in the world has proper safety nets so that all people are provided food, clothing, shelter and adequate healthcare? How could his life possibly been hard? He's not in Merka anymore, so his life is bound to have improved.

[Audley Strange]

Well since another option was to stay in the U.S. and end up beheaded or something, yes his life probably has improved. I bet it did wonders for his facebook rep.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well since another option was to stay in the U.S. and end up beheaded or something, yes his life probably has improved. I bet it did wonders for his facebook rep.

Still another option would have been to not violate his oath, not betray secrets he was honor bound to keep, etc. He could also simply have quit his job when he found it to be untenable. Or, he could have reported what he saw as violations to the authorities.

I think there probably was some middle ground available, short of stealing terrabyte after terrabyte of data and extorting the US government. Said gubmint folks tend to look askance at such things.

[orpheus]

Well since another option was to stay in the U.S. and end up beheaded or something, yes his life probably has improved. I bet it did wonders for his facebook rep.

Still another option would have been to not violate his oath, not betray secrets he was honor bound to keep, etc. He could also simply have quit his job when he found it to be untenable. Or, he could have reported what he saw as violations to the authorities.

I think there probably was some middle ground available, short of stealing terrabyte after terrabyte of data and extorting the US government. Said gubmint folks tend to look askance at such things.

Many of these gubmint folks have arguably been violating the Constitution by conducting utterly unjustified massive intrusive surveillance on huge numbers of American citizens. Said citizens tend to look askance at such things.

They've been caught with their pants down and they don't like it. Tough.

[Coito ergo sum]

The Obama Administration has been engaging in gross violations of the Constitution?

Democrats? Obama supporters? What say you to this charge?

[orpheus]

The Obama Administration has been engaging in gross violations of the Constitution?

Democrats? Obama supporters? What say you to this charge?

The NSA has. Doesn't seem to matter much whose watch it's under.

[Audley Strange]

The Obama Administration has been engaging in gross violations of the Constitution?

Democrats? Obama supporters? What say you to this charge?

Plausible deniability is implausible.

Oh and fuck the Democrats and Obama. A different shade of plutocratic servants is still a bunch of plutocratic servants.

[Coito ergo sum]

The Obama Administration has been engaging in gross violations of the Constitution?

Democrats? Obama supporters? What say you to this charge?

The NSA has. Doesn't seem to matter much whose watch it's under.

The NSA is part of the Obama Administration.

[JimC]

The Obama Administration has been engaging in gross violations of the Constitution?

Democrats? Obama supporters? What say you to this charge?

The NSA has. Doesn't seem to matter much whose watch it's under.

The NSA is part of the Obama Administration.

But the Obama administration didn't suddenly change the remit of the NSA. Large government institutions have their own momentum, and the responsibility for their actions sheets home with the nation as a whole, not with one particular bunch of transient politicos.

Snowden may well be greedy, disloyal and opportunistic, and may have potentially damaged your intelligence apparatus. However, from a perspective outside the US, his actions have exposed something that needed exposing; whatever base motives may have existed, the result has value for the world, in illuminating a process that is ethically suspect and against the interests of many, both within and without the US.

[orpheus]

The Obama Administration has been engaging in gross violations of the Constitution?

Democrats? Obama supporters? What say you to this charge?

The NSA has. Doesn't seem to matter much whose watch it's under.

The NSA is part of the Obama Administration.

But the Obama administration didn't suddenly change the remit of the NSA. Large government institutions have their own momentum, and the responsibility for their actions sheets home with the nation as a whole, not with one particular bunch of transient politicos.

Snowden may well be greedy, disloyal and opportunistic, and may have potentially damaged your intelligence apparatus. However, from a perspective outside the US, his actions have exposed something that needed exposing; whatever base motives may have existed, the result has value for the world, in illuminating a process that is ethically suspect and against the interests of many, both within and without the US.

(And it's not just people outside the US who see things that way. Plenty of us inside do as well.)

CES, I'm no fan of a lot of things Obama has done. I am a fan of others. Same with previous administrations of all stripes.

[Seth]

And what experience is that?

Could it be that you haven't heard much about the rest of the story in the news because the US is desperate to downplay just how badly it has been damaged?

Too right brutha!

Between him, Assange and Manning we've been completely compromised.

You know...once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, but three times is enemy action...

[Seth]

The Obama Administration has been engaging in gross violations of the Constitution?

Democrats? Obama supporters? What say you to this charge?

The NSA has. Doesn't seem to matter much whose watch it's under.

But it does matter. Whatever some former administration did, the present administration (at any particular time) cannot use the "but everyone else is doing it" excuse. That's not how it works. Each administration, and each politician, and each Supreme Court Justice has a duty to the People and the Constitution and it is their absolute obligation to do whatever they can do to ensure that both are respected and they do their jobs with honor and obedience, even if that means denouncing the wrongful actions of governments and bureaucrats past.

If Obama thought it was wrong, he should have and could have put a stop to it, or at least reined it in. Like he said he would during the campaign.

He didn't, and during his terms, the buck stops at him. Therefore the blame lies with him. Full stop.

[Warren Dew]

I think there probably was some middle ground available, short of stealing terrabyte after terrabyte of data and extorting the US government. Said gubmint folks tend to look askance at such things.

Snowden did not steal "terrabyte after terrabyte (sic)" of data. You're thinking of Manning. Snowden only leaked documents carefully selected to reveal the NSA's excesses while minimizing damage to legitimate security activities.

But the Obama administration didn't suddenly change the remit of the NSA.

Seth's answer is apropos, but in addition, Obama did massively expand these activities. Part of that was that Obama was more willing to fund massive data processing activities, but another part was that Obama was more willing to ignore constitutional limitations on government.

[orpheus]

The Obama Administration has been engaging in gross violations of the Constitution?

Democrats? Obama supporters? What say you to this charge?

The NSA has. Doesn't seem to matter much whose watch it's under.

But it does matter. Whatever some former administration did, the present administration (at any particular time) cannot use the "but everyone else is doing it" excuse. That's not how it works. Each administration, and each politician, and each Supreme Court Justice has a duty to the People and the Constitution and it is their absolute obligation to do whatever they can do to ensure that both are respected and they do their jobs with honor and obedience, even if that means denouncing the wrongful actions of governments and bureaucrats past.

If Obama thought it was wrong, he should have and could have put a stop to it, or at least reined it in. Like he said he would during the campaign.

He didn't, and during his terms, the buck stops at him. Therefore the blame lies with him. Full stop.

As I said, I'm not a big fan of all Obama does. I have no particular allegiance to Democrats or Republicans. But ok, let's say it really is his fault. In any case, it seems you agree with me that what the NSA is/was up to is awful. So Snowden did right.