The Coming Collapse of the World Economy

[sandinista]

Gawdzilla and Crumple.

Crumple? I had no problems with what he was writing...zilla, well, that's just silly.

For all we know it will be worse, or the same.

That is a possibility. Sure.

What better thing do you think will come of it?

Already covered.

Not to the degree that a greater global collapse would cause.

Speculation.

The current situation is peanuts compared to what I was attempting to describe.

again, speculation. You want me to have a crystal ball, get one yourself. Prove what your saying.

Hopeful for what? What do you hope for? (

already covered

Could you clue us in on what system you want to see born?

are you serious. You want an entire outline of an complete social/economic system written out for you on an internet forum. Ask the impossible much?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So you haven't even thought about the replacement. Typical coffee house hero.

[Coito ergo sum]

Gawdzilla and Crumple.

Crumple? I had no problems with what he was writing...zilla, well, that's just silly.

I did not suggest you had a problem with either of their writings, and whether you had a problem with either of them is irrelevant.

For all we know it will be worse, or the same.

That is a possibility. Sure.

Perhaps even likely, if history is a guide. Can you think of an example in history where something better has emerged? Monarchy? Oligarchy? Capitalism? Aristocracy? Fascism? It seems like the odds are not in favor of "something better" emerging - well, unless you have something specific you're thinking about that I'm missing. What do you consider a reasonable possibility?

What better thing do you think will come of it?

Already covered.

No. You said what it would not be, which still left almost an infinite number of iterations possible. You never said what it was you were talking about. Don't worry, though, we all know why you evade being specific in that regard.

Not to the degree that a greater global collapse would cause.

Speculation.

Reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. If the current state of affairs has produced the sordid state of affairs we have now, certainly a far worse state of affairs can reasonably be surmised to very probably produce an even more sordid state of affairs.

The current situation is peanuts compared to what I was attempting to describe.

again, speculation. You want me to have a crystal ball, get one yourself. Prove what your saying.

We both appear to agree on the point that a global collapse will destroy the current system, don't we? You've made the assertion that you hope some better system will arise. I do too. I hope that a better system arises whether or not there is a global collapse. Everyone wants things to be better. The question is, however, do you have anything more specific than that? Or, are you just wishing for good things?

As for proving what I'm saying - do you really take issue with the fact that a global economic collapse that is worse than the turmoil we are in right now will cause greater negative effects world wide than we are experiencing now? First I want to make sure you are really taking issue with that statement.

Hopeful for what? What do you hope for? (

already covered

Hasn't been, and you know it. What system do you see as a better system that might come out of the chaos? Or, if it could be one of many, give me one of your main examples - one of the top 3 - or the one you know the best and in most detail - or the one you think is most likely.

Could you clue us in on what system you want to see born?

are you serious. You want an entire outline of an complete social/economic system written out for you on an internet forum. Ask the impossible much?

No, not an entire outline. You could hit the high points, or at least give us the name of the system you're talking about.

If what you're suggesting you hope emerges is so indescribably complex, then who is going to facilitate its emergence? A bunch of people without the capacity to even articulate what they are trying to form?

[Coito ergo sum]

So you haven't even thought about the replacement. Typical coffee house hero.

No, I am sure he has thought about it. He just doesn't want to be explicit on what it is that he hopes for. Whether it's out of embarrassment or not is unclear.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So you haven't even thought about the replacement. Typical coffee house hero.

No, I am sure he has thought about it. He just doesn't want to be explicit on what it is that he hopes for. Whether it's out of embarrassment or not is unclear.

"Incoherence" comes rapidly to mind.

[sandinista]

Can you think of an example in history where something better has emerged?

Cuba, post Batista, South America in general present day is moving towards something better.

we all know why you evade being specific in that regard.

"we all"...can;t you just speak for yourself? So why is that?

Reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. If the current state of affairs has produced the sordid state of affairs we have now, certainly a far worse state of affairs can reasonably be surmised to very probably produce an even more sordid state of affairs.

Not necessarily, still speculation, based on "feelings" not evidence.

We both appear to agree on the point that a global collapse will destroy the current system, don't we?

again, not necessarily. A global collapse of this system could be "saved" and the system could be prolonged. Eventually, sure, capitalism will cease to be, but whether that is in the near or far off future is not certain in the least.

do you really take issue with the fact that a global economic collapse that is worse than the turmoil we are in right now will cause greater negative effects world wide than we are experiencing now?

depends who "we" refers to.

No, not an entire outline. You could hit the high points, or at least give us the name of the system you're talking about.

the name? Stuck on ideology are you? It may be something completely new, I have no crystal ball.

If what you're suggesting you hope emerges is so indescribably complex

All systems are complex, the current one we live in is extremely complex and takes different forms all over the planet.

[Coito ergo sum]

Can you think of an example in history where something better has emerged?

Cuba, post Batista, South America in general present day is moving towards something better.

Is that the same "something better" you wish for the rest of the world?

we all know why you evade being specific in that regard.

"we all"...can;t you just speak for yourself? So why is that?

Because your lack of specificity means you can't actually be held to defend what you believe. You can simply criticize other things, without standing behind what you advocate.

Reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. If the current state of affairs has produced the sordid state of affairs we have now, certainly a far worse state of affairs can reasonably be surmised to very probably produce an even more sordid state of affairs.

Not necessarily, still speculation, based on "feelings" not evidence.

Coming from someone whose sole assertion has been a "hope" for "something better," that's quite amusing.

We both appear to agree on the point that a global collapse will destroy the current system, don't we?

again, not necessarily. A global collapse of this system could be "saved" and the system could be prolonged. Eventually, sure, capitalism will cease to be, but whether that is in the near or far off future is not certain in the least.

If the current system is saved, then your "something better" can't emerge to replace it.

do you really take issue with the fact that a global economic collapse that is worse than the turmoil we are in right now will cause greater negative effects world wide than we are experiencing now?

depends who "we" refers to.

Humanity. Certainly including Canadians, such as yourself.

No, not an entire outline. You could hit the high points, or at least give us the name of the system you're talking about.

the name? Stuck on ideology are you? It may be something completely new, I have no crystal ball.

But you know what you prefer, desire, advocate and hope for, don't you? Well, unless, of course, it's merely as vapid and vacuous as "something better"....

A crystal ball is unnecessary. I did not ask you to predict what "will" emerge. I asked you what it was you were hoping would emerge. Several times now.

If what you're suggesting you hope emerges is so indescribably complex

All systems are complex, the current one we live in is extremely complex and takes different forms all over the planet.

But not indescribably complex. If someone asks me what a capitalist system is like, I can give them a rough idea and some examples. If you hope for a different system, what is it that you hope for?

If you are of the mind that all systems are so complex that we can't even talk about them intelligently, then there is no point in even continuing. You aren't willing to discuss anything in detail, and all you want to do is gripe about how shitty and unfair the current system is, without taking any responsibility for defending or even explaining what you hope would be its replacement. Fair enough. You are entitled to do that.

[sandinista]

Is that the same "something better" you wish for the rest of the world?

you asked for examples, I gave them. Yes, certain aspects of the changes in South America I would welcome for the rest of the world.

Because your lack of specificity means you can't actually be held to defend what you believe.

defend? From who?

You can simply criticize other things

So, now there is something wrong with criticizing systems and policies. Not surprised you would say that. Criticism is vital to change and progress.

If the current system is saved, then your "something better" can't emerge to replace it.

perhaps not right away, eventually though. Capitalism, like all other systems is not permanent.

I asked you what it was you were hoping would emerge. Several times now.

and I already told you.

all you want to do is gripe about how shitty and unfair the current system is

again, the little fascist in you hates critiques. "How dare you criticize our capitalist utopia!!"

[Coito ergo sum]

Is that the same "something better" you wish for the rest of the world?

you asked for examples, I gave them. Yes, certain aspects of the changes in South America I would welcome for the rest of the world.

LOLz.... "certain aspects." Me too. That's saying precisely nothing. What aspects?

Because your lack of specificity means you can't actually be held to defend what you believe.

defend? From who?

Defend or even explain. Defend in this context means "back up."

You can simply criticize other things

So, now there is something wrong with criticizing systems and policies. Not surprised you would say that. Criticism is vital to change and progress.

Nothing wrong with it at all. Mere criticism, however, is pointless, especially when you claim to be hoping for some sort of change in particular. There is also nothing wrong with asking you what the hell you're hoping for. You seem to, however, feel the need to hide your beliefs, or obfuscate and evade. Why not just say what it is, exactly, that you're hoping for? If your answer is "I'm not entirely sure, I just want it to be better," then that's fine. Just stop pretending like you know something of any substance or moment.

If the current system is saved, then your "something better" can't emerge to replace it.

perhaps not right away, eventually though. Capitalism, like all other systems is not permanent.[/quote] But it has to go away before it is replaced. What are you hoping replaces it, exactly? What is it that you're thinking could replace it that would be better?

I asked you what it was you were hoping would emerge. Several times now.

and I already told you.

No, you did not. You mentioned one thing that it would not entail. That's like saying "what kind of car do you want?" And, then you answer, "...not a black one..." That says what color you don't want, it doesn't say what car you do want.

all you want to do is gripe about how shitty and unfair the current system is

again, the little fascist in you hates critiques. "How dare you criticize our capitalist utopia!!"

No, I love critiques. I hate pompous little know-nothing snits who can piss and moan about the state of affairs and pretend that they know or "hope for" some possible better system, but are too cowardly to come out and state/explain exactly what they are advocating or hoping for.

You sound like you're still a college know-it-all who thinks he can lecture the world on politics and morality after one freshman semester, and that's the extent of knowledge that you've shown. I've got it now, though - you hate capitalism and wish it would go away. You hope it will be replaced by something better, but you won't describe what you hope it will be replaced with and you claim it's just too complex for you to do that. Fair enough. You can't do it. I'll not press you on it any longer.

[Robert_S]

Sandi, economic and government collapse would not be good for leftists up here in North Merka?

Who has the guns, and therefore the default political power should push come to shove?

Not so much the socialists and liberals I fear.

[sandinista]

Mere criticism, however, is pointless

baloney.

Just stop pretending like you know something of any substance or moment.

Why, seems to work for you.

I hate pompous little know-nothing snits

You hate yourself? Maybe some time to get some self esteem there amigo.

You sound like you're still a college know-it-all

better than a high school know nothing.

[Audley Strange]

"Collapse" does nothing to describe the ramifications of an actual economic meltdown really does it? I mean the whole "yeaaaahh down with The Man" aspect is all very well and good until the cops give up waiting for their paycheck and join the looters and you can't deploy the military because they've not been paid either. The shops are all burned and empty, every fuckwit with "strong moral convictions" is out trying to convince anyone with weapons to make them their leader. Any transition to any other system will be played out over decades if some crazy bastards don't get in charge and send in the nukes to wake Jehovah or some such. It's not like Cameron's going to go on T.V. and say, "right folks, we're all returning to an industry based feudal clan system as of 9 A.M. tomorrow." and we all just step to it.

As a concept, it can be pretty exciting to play with but if it was real and an actual risk to your day to day survival that's a whole different matter.

[Atheist-Lite]

"Collapse" does nothing to describe the ramifications of an actual economic meltdown really does it? I mean the whole "yeaaaahh down with The Man" aspect is all very well and good until the cops give up waiting for their paycheck and join the looters and you can't deploy the military because they've not been paid either. The shops are all burned and empty, every fuckwit with "strong moral convictions" is out trying to convince anyone with weapons to make them their leader. Any transition to any other system will be played out over decades if some crazy bastards don't get in charge and send in the nukes to wake Jehovah or some such. It's not like Cameron's going to go on T.V. and say, "right folks, we're all returning to an industry based feudal clan system as of 9 A.M. tomorrow." and we all just step to it.

As a concept, it can be pretty exciting to play with but if it was real and an actual risk to your day to day survival that's a whole different matter.

You forgot the famine - this is a central plank to how things will work through. Who & how many survive the approaching global famine, and how well do they recover any remnant of the former civilization?

[Coito ergo sum]

Mere criticism, however, is pointless

baloney.

Just stop pretending like you know something of any substance or moment.

Why, seems to work for you.

I hate pompous little know-nothing snits

You hate yourself? Maybe some time to get some self esteem there amigo.

You sound like you're still a college know-it-all

better than a high school know nothing.

Q.E.D.

[Atheist-Lite]

This is a serious subject here. Can we move beyond post slicing and try to figure what we're gonna do with the situation we face?