Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

[Rum]

The reality is that the financial arguments are too complex for most of us to form an opinion about leaving on. If they were relatively straightforward they would have been laid out in various ways by the people who know. My own sense is we will be financially worse off but that is based on an overall impression from what I have read, as well, if I am honest, as my personal bias.

The reasons to remain part of the EU are not primarily, for me and many like me anyway, fiscal or about the economy, but about being part of something more and something progressive and a chance of moving on from nation statehood.

[Tyrannical]

but about being part of something more and something progressive and a chance of moving on from nation statehood.

I know you mean well, but I'd like to avoid WWIII. I could play fortytwo and write a long follow up, but look at what you wrote. Can that reason justify and ensure the EU's existence? No, and you know it.

[pErvinalia]

How is the EU going to lead to WWIII?

[Rum]

but about being part of something more and something progressive and a chance of moving on from nation statehood.

I know you mean well, but I'd like to avoid WWIII. I could play fortytwo and write a long follow up, but look at what you wrote. Can that reason justify and ensure the EU's existence? No, and you know it.

Seems to me it has been a hugely good thing for Europe since 1945. I don’t just 'mean well'. I’m not the naive idealist you so condescendingly seem to think I am. It has pulled together countries that fought each other for centuries and begun a slow process of making the continent one country. I’m all for that for the sake of peace, security, the breaking down of dangerous nationalism and the kind of politics that got Trump into power.

[Brian Peacock]

Man, that's a lot of money. That's gotta hurt...

That's the positively spun big number. The FT, who broke the story, has consistently estimated that the final cost will be in the region £100bn - as they have done today. The £45bn figure is the down payment.

[mistermack]

When you say cost, it doesn't help if you are ignoring the cost of staying in. Which is also pretty substantial.
In a two year transition period, if we had still been members, our government would have to pay about thirty billion directly.
I want to know if this "leaving fee" is on top, or instead of that figure. It's as clear as mud in the media.

I don't see why we should be paying money for nothing. If we're paying, we should still be getting benefits.

The chance of trade with the EU should be separate, and that should just be a straight swap for their access to OUR market. It's a like-for-like trade.

If the EU institutions are doing work that benefits us, there's nothing wrong with paying, so long as we are also allocated part of the work.

[rainbow]

PM to boost government’s credibility by replacing Boris Johnson with newly-available Robert Mugabe

http://newsthump.com/2017/11/21/pm-to-b ... rt-mugabe/

[Brian Peacock]

When you say cost, it doesn't help if you are ignoring the cost of staying in. Which is also pretty substantial.
In a two year transition period, if we had still been members, our government would have to pay about thirty billion directly.
I want to know if this "leaving fee" is on top, or instead of that figure. It's as clear as mud in the media.

I don't see why we should be paying money for nothing. If we're paying, we should still be getting benefits.

The chance of trade with the EU should be separate, and that should just be a straight swap for their access to OUR market. It's a like-for-like trade.

If the EU institutions are doing work that benefits us, there's nothing wrong with paying, so long as we are also allocated part of the work.

Yeah, focussing on the spend and ignoring the net gain was a ploy the leave campaign honed to perfection.

[mistermack]

Yeah, focussing on the spend and ignoring the net gain was a ploy the leave campaign honed to perfection.

There's nothing wrong with that. An election or referendum is an adversarial system, like a trial.
Each side presents a thoroughly biased side of the argument, and the voters (jury) has to pick the bones out of it.

[Brian Peacock]

Yeah, and if you can't get away with that just say the other lot are engaged in 'project fear' and that all experts are prejudiced and unpatriotic.

[DRSB]

Is this up to him?

Nigel Farage has refused to give up his EU pension after Brexit, asking: "Why should my family and others suffer even more?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 89256.html

[Brian Peacock]

Being has he maxed-out his EU parliament expenses, and used that money to pay for his UK parliamentary campaign, it wouldn't surprise me.

[mistermack]

By not taking all that he's entitled to, he would in effect be donating it to the EU.
Why the hell would he do that?

He's been fighting it for decades, and done an excellent job of it. At least he's made a difference, which is more than can be said for the rest of them.

[rainbow]

At least he's made a difference, which is more than can be said for the rest of them.

As did Dolfie Hitler.

[mistermack]

At least he's made a difference, which is more than can be said for the rest of them.

As did Dolfie Hitler.

AND they both married a German !! Like twins, really.