An independent Scotland?

[mistermack]

Your opinion of Scotland, and the irrelevance of countries generally, is noted. Irrelevant, but noted.

It is however relevant to many people who live in Scotland. Similarly, being "British" is relevant to people who don't want their laws and local decisions made by, I don't know, Belgium? Do you see the connection?

Yes, and it's pathetic.

[ronmcd]

Your opinion of Scotland, and the irrelevance of countries generally, is noted. Irrelevant, but noted.

It is however relevant to many people who live in Scotland. Similarly, being "British" is relevant to people who don't want their laws and local decisions made by, I don't know, Belgium? Do you see the connection?

Yes, and it's pathetic.

So ... just to be clear ... you think all UK political decisions, eg foreign policy, local housing policies for Newcastle, refuse collection in Aberdeen ... they should be decided by Europe?

[mistermack]

So ... just to be clear ... you think all UK political decisions, eg foreign policy, local housing policies for Newcastle, refuse collection in Aberdeen ... they should be decided by Europe?

So, just to be equally clear, you do realise that we are part of Europe?
You're making me wonder now.

We've always had local councils for local refuse collections.
But your landfill policy is already decided in Europe. We have a say in that. We have a say in the landfill policy in Poland and Italy too. It must be ruining their lives.

But yes, I'd love to see a United States of Europe.
Nothing wrong with that at all.

[ronmcd]

So ... just to be clear ... you think all UK political decisions, eg foreign policy, local housing policies for Newcastle, refuse collection in Aberdeen ... they should be decided by Europe?

So, just to be equally clear, you do realise that we are part of Europe?
You're making me wonder now.

We've always had local councils for local refuse collections.
But your landfill policy is already decided in Europe. We have a say in that. We have a say in the landfill policy in Poland and Italy too. It must be ruining their lives.

But yes, I'd love to see a United States of Europe.
Nothing wrong with that at all.

No, I'm not talking about a United States of Europe. A USE (?) would not rule out devolution of local political decision making, in the way Holyrood does for Scotland today. My point is you appear to want as centralised decision making as possible.

And that is fine, we are all entitled to our political opinions. If you feel strongly about it, presumably there is a political party advocating the same ideas. But today in Scotland, according to current polls AND the referendum which created the Scottish Paliament a decade ago, a majority of people want powers devolved from westminister.

If most people want more devolution - or eventually independence - then that's what will happen.

[mistermack]

Yeh, keep grinding out that scratchy old 78.

Ain't it odd that some of the polls I've seen indicate that a majority of scots would vote for independence if they were going to be £1000 a year better off.
But wouldn't, if they were only going to be £500 a year better off.

So much for your "scottish desire for self determination"

It's complete bollocks.

[hadespussercats]

Red, I think you're overreacting. The Mod response to the personal attacks and the pic you posted was perfectly reasonably and normal.

This isn't the first time I've been bitten by this shit. If you think that the above was reasonable and normal, I'll disagree. And in that disagreement I'll offer a suggestion...

When someone hits the report button on a post, don't judge that post alone. Read a few posts back and take a look to see why there is animosity there in the first place and, if it is deserved, give the relevant people a slap on the balls and not just the one person whose post got reported.

It's like there's a fight taking place between two people. At some point, as they're fighting, the guy who is losing reaches for the whistle to summon some officials. When they arrive they tell one of the two people to pack it in... and not necessarily the person who threw the first punch.

Justice is more important than a fucking clique.

Red, we did read more than just that one post-- at least, I did, and the three or four other mods who were online at the time did as well. I have not yet read the entire thread, but I read a page or so previous to the report.

You're acting like you feel you haven't been made welcome here. I'm surprised. I thought you were swimming like a champ.

[hadespussercats]

Remind me again who won the Nobel Peace prize recently?

Me. And I want my share.
I'm still waiting.

Huh. I thought it was the Victoria's Secret Angels Collection.

[charlou]

If the Forest of Dean voted for it's own parliament, I don't see why it wouldn't make sense to create one. If thats what people want. But that's a completely different issue from Scotland. Scotland is a country which is currently - legally and voluntarily - in a union with England, forming GB. If a majority of people in Scotland vote to dissolve that union, Scotland will be independent : FACT.

The Forest of Dean does not have the legal status that would allow it to become independent, it would require a political movement, a buildup of support over time, a decision by the UK to allow it, and finally a way to measure that support.

The comparison is nonsense.

I'll tell you what's nonsense.
The bit in red. It's the most pathetic of human beliefs. That people are somehow different to people just a mile across a border. Just because some ancient gangsters drew a line.

That's what I really don't like about nationalism. And it is the most utter shite.
Ok, so you want a game of football? Fair enough. Divide yourselves up into groups.

But going any further is moronic.
I'm with Rum all the way. We should be removing these artificial lines in the sand.
Not worshipping them, or losing our rag over them, or getting all sentimental.

My surname is the same as the first king of Scotland, by the way.
Maybe I have some of his genes. I really don't give a shit.
It's ancient history, it's not relevant.

Aye .. move on.

[Jason]

Wait wut?

If you oppose nationalism why are you trying to preserve the unity of the UK? Isn't dissolution the fastest way to absolve nation states? I think you're full of shit Mack. Just another Englishman afraid of losing Scotland.

[Clinton Huxley]

Red Celt STILL complaining? It's not like a Scot to bang on about being aggrieved.....

Yes, yes, not helpful.

[Svartalf]

Want me to organize a reading of Bobby Burns poetry, starting with "Scots wha hae"?

[JimC]

Anymore of this, and I'll post something with Kenneth McKellar singing...

[ronmcd]

Yeh, keep grinding out that scratchy old 78.

Ain't it odd that some of the polls I've seen indicate that a majority of scots would vote for independence if they were going to be £1000 a year better off.
But wouldn't, if they were only going to be £500 a year better off.

So much for your "scottish desire for self determination"

It's complete bollocks.

You are moving goalposts constantly. Now you are talking about independence. We were discussing devolution as it currently stands, and your preference for more centralised power by comparison, presumably at Westminister. You say you are happy for a US of Europe, but you wouldnt want all YOUR political decisions made for you in Europe, I am sure.

Its all irrelevant, your opinion of devolution/centralisation, or mine. It is about democracy and what a majority of people want. The people of UK (but England in particular) do not want Europe to make their decisions for them, being really quite Euro-sceptic. Scotland now has a parliament and does not want Westminister making decisions for Scotland, the only question is the extent of the additional powers Scots want devolved and which they are happy to leave reserved.

Current and even future devolution is completely different from independence, as you suggest there are reasons people in Scotland MIGHT vote for independence, but dont appear to support it currently. Again, not sure how else to explain this ... it's democracy.

(your claims are wrong, btw, a poll was that a majority would vote for independence if they knew they personally would be £500 better off. The £1000 figure is how much the SNP say each household would be better off under CURRENT tax and spend figures relative to the current UK position, if Scotland were independent and had geographic share of resources etc. That does not mean Scotland would be running a surplus of £1000 per household, but that Scotland would be running £1000 per household lower deficit. )

[ronmcd]

What the polls do show is that people in Scotland trust the Scottish Parliament to make decisions rather than Westminister, and want more powers there. In general they want Scotland to run it's own affairs, preferably.

But the potential risks, unknowns and claims of being too wee and too poor have an effect. People are cautious. So there is every chance if those fears and worries can be allayed by the YES campaign (not just the SNP) then a majority might well vote for independence in 2014.

One more thing the polls showed recently, as recently as a Times poll on Sunday past. When asked how they would vote, the % for independence was below 50%. When asked how they would vote if it looked like the Tories would be returned in 2015, more than 50% said yes to independence. What does that show? The people of Scotland are not averse to the idea of being independent, so it is going to be close ....

[Svartalf]

Anymore of this, and I'll post something with Kenneth McKellar singing...

You know that if you do, I'll have to suggest to céline dion that she do a tour in Oz don't you?