Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

[Warren Dew]

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car?

Why should he have to stay in his car? He lives in the neighborhood. It's his home. He shouldn't have to lock himself in his car whenever there's a stranger around.

[kiki5711]

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car?

Why should he have to stay in his car? He lives in the neighborhood. It's his home. He shouldn't have to lock himself in his car whenever there's a stranger around.

that makes absolutely no sense. why should he stay in his car? it's not like he's just parked there for the scenery. he was out looking for suspicious persons, and if he thought martin was suspicious he should have called 911 and stayed in his car. Just plain common sense.

What did he think he was going to accomplish by following martin? "a superman saves the day" in the morning paper?

[Warren Dew]

What did he think he was going to accomplish by following martin? "a superman saves the day" in the morning paper?

He thought Martin was a burglar. He probably figured he'd deter a burglary, or deter someone from casing a house for burglary. Maybe he did.

[mistermack]

I don't think he's a coward. If I were getting the shit beat out of me and in fear for my life, I'd have used my gun as well. I'm no fan of guns, but if I were in Zimmerman's shoes, I would be grateful I'd had one on me. What would be the preferable alternative to using it? Having my head bashed in? Dying? Would that be the brave thing to do?

So you're saying that everybody who gets in a fight, should have the right to kill their opponent?
Nice.

[mistermack]

What did he think he was going to accomplish by following martin? "a superman saves the day" in the morning paper?

He thought Martin was a burglar. He probably figured he'd deter a burglary, or deter someone from casing a house for burglary. Maybe he did.

His only evidence for that was that the kid was black, and wearing a hoodie.
If that made him think Martin was a burglar, he's going to cop for a federal race-hate crime.
I hope he does.

[Warren Dew]

He thought Martin was a burglar. He probably figured he'd deter a burglary, or deter someone from casing a house for burglary. Maybe he did.

His only evidence for that was that the kid was black, and wearing a hoodie.

He might have had more evidence than that. He knew what kinds of behavior were normal for the neighborhood, and what were not.

And fortunately, it is not yet a crime in the U.S. for suspecting someone of being a burglar, whatever the reason.

[tattuchu]

I don't think he's a coward. If I were getting the shit beat out of me and in fear for my life, I'd have used my gun as well. I'm no fan of guns, but if I were in Zimmerman's shoes, I would be grateful I'd had one on me. What would be the preferable alternative to using it? Having my head bashed in? Dying? Would that be the brave thing to do?

So you're saying that everybody who gets in a fight, should have the right to kill their opponent?
Nice.

If the other person was trying to kill you, sure. But of course a non-lethal solution would be preferable. If Zimmerman had been carrying a can of mace instead of a gun, he might have achieved the same result without killing someone in the process. I'm not so keen on guns. I don't think they're necessary. But if I were Zimmerman getting my head bashed in, I'd certainly be happy I had one on me.

[kiki5711]

What did he think he was going to accomplish by following martin? "a superman saves the day" in the morning paper?

He thought Martin was a burglar. He probably figured he'd deter a burglary, or deter someone from casing a house for burglary. Maybe he did.

that only shows that he's delusional/paranoid/and not fit for the job of neighborhood watch. It could have been anyone from the neighborhood, walking in the back, not dressed to well, and then what, zimmerman decided who's a potential burglar and who's not?

His job is to notify the police not be a superman.

[kiki5711]

He thought Martin was a burglar. He probably figured he'd deter a burglary, or deter someone from casing a house for burglary. Maybe he did.

His only evidence for that was that the kid was black, and wearing a hoodie.

He might have had more evidence than that. He knew what kinds of behavior were normal for the neighborhood, and what were not.

And fortunately, it is not yet a crime in the U.S. for suspecting someone of being a burglar, whatever the reason.

Ridiculous. Walking is now considered "suspicious"? and why would this particular person look suspicious? it was all in zimmerman's mind, not reality.

[kiki5711]

and what if some big dude dressed in army outfit was just going for a walk, and he lived there? would that look suspicious too? it seems a lot of things looked suspicious to zimmerman. he needs some deep psychiatric care and not a job as neighborhood watch.

[maiforpeace]

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car? He was advised to stay there.

He was not advised to stay in his car.

He had his own gun, so his personal safety was not an issue while he remained in the car. Martin wasn't brandishing a weapon, and even if Martin taunted or threatened him verbally his only reason for leaving the car was an aggressive and offensive act. That is not self defense or being defensive.

The confrontation did not occur close to the time he got out of his car. He got out of his car, and he was on the phone with the 911 dispatcher. He was telling the dispatcher what he was seeing, and he was following Martin. You can hear the rustling as he's moving. He tells the dispatcher he is following the guy. The dispatcher says "we don't need you to do that." He responds, "o.k." You stop hearing the rustling. Zimmerman states that Martin has run off. He then walks around for about a minute and half to a minute and 45 seconds while coordinates with the dispatcher where to meet the cops.

Getting out of the car was not a hostile act any more than Martin walking around the neighborhood was a hostile act. He's a neighborhood watchman, coordinated with the police, and his job in that regard is to watch the neighborhood and report things. Based on the tape, that seems to be what he's doing.

Granted, once he got out of his car it may have been self defense, but even then it must have happened really fast for them to get physical with each other so quickly before he had a chance to pull out his gun.

After the minute and a half chat with the dispatcher, he hangs up the phone. It is at some time after that that the altercation took place. So, it did not happen really soon after getting out of the car. According to the 911 audio tape, Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin.

We don't know how the fight started. We do know that Zimmerman's head is injured on the back and he had a beaten or even broken nose, and a witness told the cops that Martin was on top of him and beating him "mixed martial arts style." Shttp://us.mg205.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.partner=sbc&.rand=28646ujhc66e6o, according that evidence, when Zimmerman fired the gun, he was being beaten with Martin in the superior position.

OK, he wasn't advised to stay in the car. He decided on his own to get out of his car and start following a suspicious person, while simultaneously calling a dispatcher to inform them of this. They tell him not to follow Martin, yet he continues. Then whoops, he just loses the guy somewhere? Wouldn't you be on your guard then and have your gun out? What happened between them that encouraged this kid to take him on in a fight? I'm only interested in hearing about the scenarios that would make Zimmerman not culpable in any way of being aggressive and offensive and merely being defensive.
As I've indicated previously, I think that both were guilty of actions that contributed to Martin's death, and I'm further interested in understanding exactly how that will translate through the stand your ground law...because, sorry, I do think that this particular law had everything to do with how this will all come down in the end, despite many protestations by others here earlier in this thread.

[Warren Dew]

They tell him not to follow Martin

People keep saying this, and it's factually mistaken. They told him he didn't have to follow Martin; they never told him that he shouldn't follow Martin.

[FBM]

"We don't need you to do that" is an ambiguous statement, I think.

[Hermit]

"We don't need you to do that" is an ambiguous statement, I think.

I read that as a polite way of telling Zimmerman to not follow the suspect.

[FBM]

Me, too. But it does stop short of being, "Don't do that". An informative/declarative statement, not actually an imperative.