Connecticut (et al)

[FBM]

Right on, Wumbo. I've mentioned before that I've twice had to show - but not use - my handgun in order to deter physical threats. Neither incident was reported to the police, so adding to the uncertainty you mentioned is the unknown number of times annually incidents such as my experiences happen but go unreported.

[Blind groper]

There's no particularly good way to know how many deaths are uniquely attributable to guns in the US, that wouldn't have been committed with another weapon had firearms magically disappeared from the planet.

There is an excellent way. international comparisons.

As I have said before, out of the 24 nations with the highest average incomes, 80% of all gun deaths from all combined, occur in the USA.

America is the civilised world's murder capital, and two thirds of all those murders are done with guns.

[FBM]

Off duty cop with CCW stops potential killing spree in its tracks, only local media reports: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_ ... z2GOP72zBX

Wonder why major media doesn't pick up stories like that.....

It's your media. I guess these stories don't sell well to the majority of the public? Maybe the majority of the public doesn't like CCW regardless of these rare occurrences for which you cannot provide statistics. Dunno. But the important point in this instance I bolded, then underlined just one word so even a gun-nutter could see it.

From your perspective, what's the important aspect of that?

[Wumbologist]

There is an excellent way. international comparisons.

Which country is exactly the US, minus the 2nd amendment?

[Blind groper]

There is an excellent way. international comparisons.

Which country is exactly the US, minus the 2nd amendment?

All of them together. Apart from Finland, which has half the US murder rate, all others have a quarter or less of the murder rate. America murders with guns. The much lower rates of murder in the other nations are mostly (90% or thereabouts) using something other than guns. The difference is guns. If you want to delude yourself into thinking guns have no part in the massive American murder rate, you are the proverbial ostrich.

[Wumbologist]

Right on, Wumbo. I've mentioned before that I've twice had to show - but not use - my handgun in order to deter physical threats. Neither incident was reported to the police, so adding to the uncertainty you mentioned is the unknown number of times annually incidents such as my experiences happen but go unreported.

Yeah but you probably seen some aliens too, y'know. Because everyone knows being threatened by potentially violent people is as unlikely as visitors from another planet.

[FBM]

Right on, Wumbo. I've mentioned before that I've twice had to show - but not use - my handgun in order to deter physical threats. Neither incident was reported to the police, so adding to the uncertainty you mentioned is the unknown number of times annually incidents such as my experiences happen but go unreported.

Yeah but you probably seen some aliens too, y'know. Because everyone knows being threatened by potentially violent people is as unlikely as visitors from another planet.

This also happened in Mississippi, so I have a cousin-aunt-sister-girlfriend who got abducted by aliens. We all do down there.

[Wumbologist]

All of them together. Apart from Finland, which has half the US murder rate, all others have a quarter or less of the murder rate. America murders with guns. The much lower rates of murder in the other nations are mostly (90% or thereabouts) using something other than guns. The difference is guns. If you want to delude yourself into thinking guns have no part in the massive American murder rate, you are the proverbial ostrich.

I remember you saying you had something of a statistical background, and given that, I'm gonna go ahead and counter that if you think there is any apples-to-apples comparison in what you're suggesting, it might be your head in the proverbial sand.

[Blind groper]

Wumbo

If the comparison was some minor difference, you could make a case. But the USA has a murder rate of 4.1 killings per 100,000 people per year compared to NZ with 0.9. We have gangs, drug trade, ethnic minorities equal to your own, and a violent crime rate that is actually slightly higher. Yet our murder rate is less than a quarter of yours. The only real difference between our two countries is guns and gun culture, in terms of murders committed.

On the business of all those "successful self defenses" that Seth bullshits about.
The USA has the highest gun ownership in the world at 88 per 100 people. But most Americans do not own them. In fact, 200 million Americans do not own guns.

So if 100 million Americans have 2 million "successful self defense" events each year, the non gun owners must have 4 million events each year where they needed a gun and didn't have one. So that means 4 million murders........

Come on guys. The 2 million "successful self defense" events are so much total crap!

[Blind groper]

Wumbo

If the comparison was some minor difference, you could make a case. But the USA has a murder rate of 4.1 killings per 100,000 people per year compared to NZ with 0.9. We have gangs, drug trade, ethnic minorities equal to your own, and a violent crime rate that is actually slightly higher. Yet our murder rate is less than a quarter of yours. The only real difference between our two countries is guns and gun culture, in terms of murders committed.

On the business of all those "successful self defenses" that Seth bullshits about.
The USA has the highest gun ownership in the world at 88 per 100 people. But most Americans do not own them. In fact, 200 million Americans do not own guns.

So if 100 million Americans have 2 million "successful self defense" events each year, the non gun owners must have 4 million events each year where they needed a gun and didn't have one. So that means 4 million murders........

Come on guys. The 2 million "successful self defense" events are so much total crap!

[Blind groper]

For those who think that guns are great for self defense, this Harvard University report summarises what guns are really used for.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... index.html

[Seth]

To Seth

The Harvard university researchers I quoted earlier tried to check up on John Lott's raw data, to see how valid it was. (All this is in the report I posted. I hope you read it.) They found no raw data. In fact, the university Lott worked for had no record of his phone survey. The researchers tried to find research assistants who worked with Lott who might confirm what happened. Lott's assistants had no recollection of such a survey. The Harvard researchers had to be careful with their wording in their report, since they would be open to a law suit, but their careful statements were clearly suggesting that the survey you love so much was invented holus bolus. An outright lie.

Liar. You and the Harvard fuckwits, who were debunked at the time by Lott himself and others.

If it was not a lie, the percentages reported are entirely consistent with the small percentage of total nut cases we know every population has giving a fake report.

Again, this is pure fallacy. This sort of idiotic claim proves that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. There is no correlation to be had.

If guns are so desperately needed for self defense, then why are murder rates in nations with no guns for self defense down to a quarter of less of the murder rate in the USA.

Guns aren't desperately needed for self defense...until they are...and when they are needed, nothing else will do the job. It's irrelevant what murder rates are anywhere, all that matters is that every individual has the right to effective self defense if and when they need to utilize it. They may NEVER need to utilize it, but since neither you, nor the government can either predict or prevent an event where a gun is needed for self defense, and since government has absolutely no responsibility to protect the individual against any particular crime, it lies with the individual to provide for their own defense, and therefore they have a right to be armed at all times...if they so choose.

If your much loved theory of self defense was true, then all those other nations should have very high murder rates. But they don't!!

And yet they all do have murder rates, and violent crime rates, and the violent crime rates in the UK are higher than they are in the US. And each one of those victims who might have been protected by a firearm is a victim because of people like you who reduce them to statistics and expunge their humanity and their rights in your zeal to make a stupid point that makes no sense at all. Their blood is on YOUR hands because you advocate for making them into helpless victims.

The truth is, and it has always been the truth, that an excess of guns, and a very sick gun culture in the USA costs lives - lots of lives - and saves none.

Liar.

I've posted numerous examples of people who were saved from death or injury by their firearms, but like a petulant child you just ignore any facts that conflict with your mania.

[rainbow]

I've posted numerous examples of people who were saved from death or injury by their firearms, but like a petulant child you just ignore any facts that conflict with your mania.

There are examples of people who have been saved from death or injury that didn't have firearms.
You're not really making a valid point.

[orpheus]

Guns aren't desperately needed for self defense...until they are...and when they are needed, nothing else will do the job. 

Why will nothing else do the job, Seth?

[Woodbutcher]

Google Lott. All you will find are criticisms for his report. His paper is not factual, and it's the only one you have, Seth. You lose.