Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[Tyrannical]

What is police procedure when approaching a suspicious person

Something like unbuttoning the clasp on their holster and keeping their hand near their holstered weapon? If Zimmerman did that I suspect no_limit_nigga would not have attempted an assault and Zimmerman would escort him back to the house he was staying at. And everyone lived happily ever after

If it had been a cop in uniform doing exactly that then that might've been what happened. But this was just some guy in plain clothes and a gun with no badge walking up to a teenager. I might've been scared enough to try and punch the guy's lights out if he was up close and began harassing me. Or are we assuming that Zimmerman began the encounter a good distance away and started with a polite "Excuse me... young man?"

Why yes, I would expect Zimmerman to start with a polite "Excuse me... young man?
Suddenly attacking someone armed with a gun without provocation is a good way to get legally shot.

[mistermack]

Hmm. Why does everyone seem to assume that one person was innocent and the other guilty. Why can't both of them be guilty? Why couldn't both of them have fucked up at the same time?

They could quite possibly both have made mistakes.

But if you make a mistake buying sweets, the chances are nobody will get hurt.

If you go out with a gun, throwing your weight around like a pathetic Clint Eastwood character, the chances are any mistake and someone will get killed.

That's the difference.

[amused]

As soon as Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle with gun in hand, he had criminal intent in mind.

[mistermack]

The "kid" wasn't unarmed, he had two arms with fists and fingers on each arm, and he wasn't a "kid" he was a strapping 17 year old youth fully capable of beating someone to death with his bare hands.

That covers just about every 17 yr old that isn't in a wheelchair, and some of them that are, too.

Congratulations pardner, you just justified killing nearly every male teenager in America. And many of the female ones too.

Yee haaaaa, talk about fucking paranoid.

[Tyrannical]

As soon as Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle with gun in hand, he had criminal intent in mind.

Zimmerman had a concealed weapon under his shirt. Trayvon didn't know he had a gun until after attacking Zimmerman.

I wonder after going to the store how Trayvon got back into the private gated community? Was it a manned gate or just an access code? Did he hop the fence? Did Trayvon even have the right to wander around at night unescorted on private property?

[amused]

Tucked up his ass or in hand, same thing. The crime occurred when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle, armed.

[Tyrannical]

Tucked up his ass or in hand, same thing. The crime occurred when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle, armed.

It's not a crime to have a carry and conceal permit. It's also not a crime to confront a stranger on private property and question them.

[kiki5711]

In a week of leaked high school disciplinary records, police reports and police station surveillance video in the war over public perception of Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, more details have emerged about Zimmerman’s history of violence.

Zimmerman, the 28-year-old Sanford, Fla., neighborhood watch volunteer who shot the unarmed 17-year-old Martin to death last month, was fired from a job securing illegal house parties for “being too aggressive,” according to the New York Daily News, which quoted a former colleague of Zimmerman’s. According to the co-worker, Zimmerman worked for two agencies that provided security for house parties from 2001 to 2005.

“Usually he was just a cool guy,” said the former co-worker, who the newspaper didn't name. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When dude snapped, he snapped.” The Daily News said Zimmerman earned $50 to $100 a night for the parties. He was fired for being too aggressive with patrons.

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”

The new portrayal of Zimmerman comes as distinctly different images of both Martin and Zimmerman are being floated by people on both sides of the Martin killing. Zimmerman told police he shot Martin Feb. 26 in self defense after being jumped from behind. He has not been charged.

Photos of a fresh-faced, smiling Martin in a Hollister T-shirt helped attract sympathy to his parents' call for justice, as did a 2005 police mug shot of a scowling, overweight Zimmerman photographed after being charged with assaulting a police officer.

This week, stories challenging both portraits emerged. Photos of Martin with removable gold tooth caps and revelations that he was suspended from his Miami high school three times, including once for possessing an empty baggy that school officials said contained marijuana residue, became ammunition for conservative websites and and people sympathetic to Zimmerman.

Law enforcement in Sanford also leaked a police report to the Orlando Sentinel, offering details of Zimmerman's account of the killing for the first time.

The report said Zimmerman told police that Martin attacked him from behind, punched him in the nose, wrestled him to the ground and violently bashed his head on a sidewalk. It was then, Zimmerman told the police, that he pulled out his 9mm handgun and shot Martin in the chest.

Surveillance video from the Sanford police station recorded the night of the shooting, first broadcast by ABC News on Wednesday, showed a clean-shaven and fit-looking Zimmerman being ushered in to the station without visible abrasions, bruises or bloodstains on his clothes, all of which may fail to support his account of a violent death struggle. In addition, the funeral director who handled Martin’s body reported there were no cuts or other marks on the teen's hands that would suggest violent fisticuffs.

In the days after the shooting, Martin’s family said police officers told them Zimmerman had a clean record. But a cursory search of county records showed a 2005 arrest on charges of resisting arrest and assaulting a law enforcement officer. The charges were later dropped.

Also in 2005, Zimmerman was involved in a bitter domestic violence incident with his ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo. In that case, Zuazo filed for a restraining order against Zimmerman, who she said snatched her cell phone from her hand and pushed her during an argument. The next day, both filed court petitions accusing the other of violence.

According to the Miami Herald, Zuazo said that three years earlier, Zimmerman attacked her while the two were driving to a counseling session. Zuazo said she popped her gum in his face and he repeatedly smacked her in the face. In January 2002, she added, Zimmerman became enraged that she had come home late. They wrestled and he threw her on the bed, smacking her, according to the newspaper.

In September 2003, Zimmerman called police and reported that another motorist spat on him, according to reports, Zimmerman followed the man in his car until the police arrived. Daniel Osmun, the other driver, told police that Zimmerman was tailgating and that he spit his gum out the window "out of frustration."

Osum said that Zimmerman then pulled alongside of him, and the two argued. In a police report of the incident, Osum said “at one point, he thought Mr. Zimmerman was going to attack him." No charges were filed against either man.

Zimmerman was the self-appointed captain of the neighborhood watch at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community where Martin was visiting his father and his father’s girlfriend when he was killed. Zimmerman noticed Martin, who was walking home from a store, and called 911 to report the youth as "suspicious." (Zimmerman had called 911 46 times in recent years.) According to 911 recordings the night of the killing, Zimmerman followed Martin against a dispatcher’s recommendation. The police initially said that at one point Martin noticed he was being followed, turned to ask what Zimmerman wanted, and a physical altercation ensued.

Zimmerman was questioned and released by police, who said they lacked evidence to contradict his self-defense claim. The State Attorney’s Office is considering whether to file charges. A grand jury is scheduled to be called on April 10.

Some of Zimmerman’s neighbors said he had a history of being overly aggressive and followed people whom he thought appeared suspicious back to their homes.

At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, days after the killing, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” a resident who spoke on the condition of anonymity told HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch role.

The former co-worker quoted by the Daily News said he had not recently been in touch with Zimmerman, but his latest troubles came as a shock nonetheless.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/3 ... 92591.html

[kiki5711]

what's weird is that EVEN a justifiable shooting by a POLICE OFFICER is always investigated afterward as a matter of procedure, and also they are required to take some time to meet with a psychiatrist regarding the incident. All a matter of procedure. Killing someone while in line of duty, even in self defense is still "killing someone" and it takes a time to process that action mentally as it can blurr your judgment next time.

Why was not Zimmerman put through the same procedure, especially since he is not even an official police officer in any way shape or form.

[mistermack]

Zimmerman was the self-appointed captain of the neighborhood watch.......

That says it all.
This law-abiding model of the community, (in the eyes of the wilfully blind or stupid) , appointed himself "captain".
I can see why he seems to click so much with coito. Kindred spirits there.

Nice character. Violent against women, attacks police officer, road rage, fantasised about being a cop, without the brains or control necessary. So he goes out patrolling, with his gun up his vest, hoping to make himself a hero, and improve his chances of becoming a real law-enforcer, rather than a fantasy one.
And what does he do? Kills a kid who's buying sweets.
It seems that some people will defend any gun-nut, just because they like fingering their own "weapons".

[Tyrannical]

what's weird is that EVEN a justifiable shooting by a POLICE OFFICER is always investigated afterward as a matter of procedure, and also they are required to take some time to meet with a psychiatrist regarding the incident. All a matter of procedure. Killing someone while in line of duty, even in self defense is still "killing someone" and it takes a time to process that action mentally as it can blurr your judgment next time.

Why was not Zimmerman put through the same procedure, especially since he is not even an official police officer in any way shape or form.

You do bring up a good point. What type of counseling is available to people involved in violent crimes? Probably something different than the typical victim survivor groups, and the police would have experience in matters like these. Seth would probably know since he's an ex-cop I think.

Besides, with all the death threats I'm sure Zimmerman could use a good psychiatrist.

[Tyrannical]

Pat Buchanan wrote an interesting article on this.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=50546

If it had been a white teenager who was shot, and a 28-year-old black guy who shot him, the black guy would have been arrested.

So assert those demanding the arrest of George Zimmerman, who shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

And they may be right.

Yet if Trayvon had been shot dead by a black neighborhood watch volunteer, Jesse Jackson would not have been in a pulpit in Sanford, Fla., howling that he had been "murdered and martyred."

Maxine Waters would not be screaming "hate crime."

Rep. Hank Johnson would not be raging that Trayvon had been "executed." And ex-Black Panther Bobby Rush would not have been wearing a hoodie in the well of the House.

Which tells you what this whipped-up hysteria is all about.

It is not about finding the truth about what happened that night in Sanford when Zimmerman followed Trayvon in his SUV, and the two wound up in a fight, with Trayvon dead.

It is about the exacerbation of and the exploitation of racial conflict.

[Ian]

What is police procedure when approaching a suspicious person

Something like unbuttoning the clasp on their holster and keeping their hand near their holstered weapon? If Zimmerman did that I suspect no_limit_nigga would not have attempted an assault and Zimmerman would escort him back to the house he was staying at. And everyone lived happily ever after

If it had been a cop in uniform doing exactly that then that might've been what happened. But this was just some guy in plain clothes and a gun with no badge walking up to a teenager. I might've been scared enough to try and punch the guy's lights out if he was up close and began harassing me. Or are we assuming that Zimmerman began the encounter a good distance away and started with a polite "Excuse me... young man?"

Why yes, I would expect Zimmerman to start with a polite "Excuse me... young man?

Ah, that must've been right after he referred to Trayvon as a "fuckin' coon" on the phone.

Suddenly attacking someone armed with a gun without provocation is a good way to get legally shot.

Above you're saying he had the gun hidden.

Put yourself in Trayvon's place. You're walking around minding your own business. Not many other people are in sight, if anyone. Then this large guy follows you, comes up to you and demands to know what the hell you're doing. Even if Trayvon had been the one to throw the first punch (and that's still an "if"), I'd say Trayvon's fear was pretty well justified by that point.

And you're busy explaining how fearful Zimmerman must've been, even though he started out as the one who had the gun? How disgusting.

What would've happened if this gun-happy wannabe-cop just stayed in his car (like the cops told him to do) and listened to the radio? Trayvon would've gone about his business and eaten some candy. So fuck your racist excuses (pulling out Pat Buchanan was a nice touch that solidifies your status as a bigot, so thanks). If Zimmerman had been a black guy who spotted a white kid he thought looked funny and out of place, and wound up shooting him dead, I have no doubt that you wouldn't be making excuses for him. Apparently the media reaction is what riles you even more than the facts of the case.

[Seth]

As soon as Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle with gun in hand, he had criminal intent in mind.

Wrong. First, there is no evidence that Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle "with gun in hand." The present evidence is that he holds a concealed carry permit and that the firearm remained concealed until (according to Zimmerman and at least one witness) Zimmerman was on the ground on his back with Martin on top of him. Only then did the gun come out.

Second, it's not necessarily "criminal intent" to have a gun in one's hand when facing a potential armed assailant. Sometimes it is in fact a crime to display a weapon if you don't have legal cause to do so, which is called "menacing" and which can be a felony if the weapon is improperly used to threaten or intimidate others. Even "flashing" your holstered weapon can be a crime, but that is not necessarily always the case.

It is legal to use a firearm as a threat if you reasonably believe you are in danger either based on the assailant's behavior or the totality of the circumstances which might lead one to a reasonable belief the other person is armed.

Police officers do it all the time. They stop a suspect in a violent crime who might be armed and they do so at gunpoint until they can do a pat-down to be sure the person isn't armed.

And if a police officer can do it, so can a civilian...but the circumstances have to justify the use of force. There is a continuum of force that can be used when confronting someone who you reasonably believe is engaged in a criminal act, and what level of force is used depends on the precise circumstances you face.

There is a question as to whether or not Zimmerman flashed or displayed his firearm while approaching Martin, but we'll likely never know the answer to that...if Zimmerman has a good attorney. But there is also the possibility that Zimmerman's belief that he was facing a burglar was reasonable under the totality of the circumstances and therefore may have been justified in displaying a weapon. All that will come out in court and Zimmerman will eventually be acquitted or will suffer the consequences of his actions after due process has taken place.

[Seth]

The "kid" wasn't unarmed, he had two arms with fists and fingers on each arm, and he wasn't a "kid" he was a strapping 17 year old youth fully capable of beating someone to death with his bare hands.

That covers just about every 17 yr old that isn't in a wheelchair, and some of them that are, too.

Yes, it does.

Congratulations pardner, you just justified killing nearly every male teenager in America. And many of the female ones too.

Yes, I did, and every other adult or oversized child from about age 15 to about age 80, depending on the physical condition of the attacker AND the victim in a particular situation, but only if they are using their fists in a manner that leads one to reasonably believe that one's life is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, which is the usual legal standard authorizing the use of deadly force in self defense. People like to forget about the "serious bodily harm" part of the self defense laws, and they mostly misunderstand what is meant by the term, which is defined in Colorado (and many other places) as:

C.R.S. 18-1-901 (p) "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury which, either at the time of the actual injury or at a later time, involves a substantial risk of death, a substantial risk of serious permanent disfigurement, a substantial risk of protracted loss or impairment of the function of any part or organ of the body, or breaks, fractures, or burns of the second or third degree.

Fistfights can cause fractures of the teeth, nose, jaw, orbital bones, skull, hands, arms, ribs, spine or other bones (and often do), brain damage (particularly when one is down and one's head is being beat upon the concrete), ruptured eyeballs, crushed trachea, internal organ damage and any number of other serious bodily injuries all or any of which justify the use of deadly physical force in self defense.

Yee haaaaa, talk about fucking paranoid.

Nothing paranoid about it. I worked in the ER and as a cop long enough to learn that getting beaten up, even when it's only with fists (and later feet, after you're down) is a deadly dangerous threat that almost always legally justifies the use of deadly physical force...if you have it available to you.

The advice I give people who like to get into fistfights with other is "you're looking to get shot dead."