Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire economy

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Collector1337 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:27 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:How long can this go on? Isn't there some sort of constitutional tie breaker that can force government to resume being a government? Or could this theoretically go on without an end in sight?
There's a tie-breaker. It's called the mid-term 2014 congressional elections. It's only a year and a bit away. No time at all. Be over before you know it.
:whisper: The Chinese invasion of your paralysed country is due a few months before that...

Quick!

To the bat bunker!
LOL! Invade America?

That's a good one. Thanks for that.
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by subversive science » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:35 am

Collector1337 wrote:
subversive science wrote:For the past five years Obama has tried to compromise, the Republicans have acted like compromise is a bad word. Now that they are in a weak position, they are crying "Why won't he compromise?" all while holding a gun to the head of our country.

Well, you know what? We don't negotiate with terrorists.
:fp:
I know. It's frustrating that the reactionaries are trying to bring down the rest of the government and the country while they implode. :console:

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:47 pm

subversive science wrote:For the past five years Obama has tried to compromise, the Republicans have acted like compromise is a bad word. Now that they are in a weak position, they are crying "Why won't he compromise?" all while holding a gun to the head of our country.

Well, you know what? We don't negotiate with terrorists.
We don't negotiate with dictators either :prof:

But since you are so confused and misinformed, allow me to remind you that it is Obama holding a gun at the head of the country if he doesn't get his way. The Republicans have already offered breaking up the spending bill which would have prevented the shutdown, but Obama and the Democrats refuse and initiated a dangerous shutdown instead.
All over Obama Care, which can't even be implemented because the sign up web site doesn't work and could take another year to fix according to some people with industry experience.
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Azathoth » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:47 pm

Collector1337 wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:How long can this go on? Isn't there some sort of constitutional tie breaker that can force government to resume being a government? Or could this theoretically go on without an end in sight?
There's a tie-breaker. It's called the mid-term 2014 congressional elections. It's only a year and a bit away. No time at all. Be over before you know it.
:whisper: The Chinese invasion of your paralysed country is due a few months before that...

Quick!

To the bat bunker!
LOL! Invade America?

That's a good one. Thanks for that.
Yup, there is always money for weapons. Healthcare and education, not so much
Outside the ordered universe is that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.

Code: Select all

// Replaces with spaces the braces in cases where braces in places cause stasis 
   $str = str_replace(array("\{","\}")," ",$str);

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:00 pm

Ian wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:How long can this go on? Isn't there some sort of constitutional tie breaker that can force government to resume being a government? Or could this theoretically go on without an end in sight?
Theoretically it could go on for quite a while. But running a government with so many workers being furloughed is like running your engine with the Check Oil light on. It'll keep going a ways, but things will start to wear down and there could be some very bad damage resulting from it.

But so far, the worst result may be damage to the Republican Party. The civil war within it is becoming more obvious by the day, and their public approval is in the toilet: yesterday Gallup had the party's approval rating at 28%, a record low for that polling company. And a new NBC/WSJ poll today has even worse results:
Americans blamed Republicans over President Barack Obama for thby a margin of 22 percentage points, with 53 percent saying the GOP deserved more blame, and 31 percent saying Obama did. Approval ratings for the Republican Party and the tea party were at 24 percent and 21 percent respectively -- both record lows as measured by NBC/WSJ. Obama's approval rating is a marginally positive 47 percent.
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... s-gop?lite
Why are all of these polls asking whether it's Republicans to blame or "Obama?" Why don't they ask if the Democrats are to blame. Since most Americans blame "Congress," and Obama is not in Congress, it stands to reason that they would certainly blame Republicans and not Obama personally (as much). However, if they were asked whether they blame the Democrats and the Republicans, I bet the number is much closer.

Further, it's not really a shutdown. It's a partial shutdown. Like 83 or 85% of the workers are still working. Essential government functions, construed VERY broadly, obviously, are getting done. No disaster is is impending. This is a bump in the road.

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by subversive science » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:37 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
subversive science wrote:For the past five years Obama has tried to compromise, the Republicans have acted like compromise is a bad word. Now that they are in a weak position, they are crying "Why won't he compromise?" all while holding a gun to the head of our country.

Well, you know what? We don't negotiate with terrorists.
We don't negotiate with dictators either :prof:

But since you are so confused and misinformed, allow me to remind you that it is Obama holding a gun at the head of the country if he doesn't get his way. The Republicans have already offered breaking up the spending bill which would have prevented the shutdown, but Obama and the Democrats refuse and initiated a dangerous shutdown instead.
All over Obama Care, which can't even be implemented because the sign up web site doesn't work and could take another year to fix according to some people with industry experience.
I am quite clear on the fact that Obama's only Constitutionally delegated power in this matter is to sign a bill funding the government once it passes both the House and the Senate. Not very dictatorial. :prof:

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:50 pm

Constitutionally delegated, yes. But, in operational fact, the President submits a budget for all executive agencies because he runs them. He's the CEO of all the executive agencies, and he submits a proposed budget which the Congress reviews and can change or approve along with all other spending proposals.

The use of the term "funding the government" loads the question a bit. The extent of "the government" is a function of what Congress approves. They have the taxing and spending authority, and they make the laws, including the laws which create and finance government agencies. This isn't a situation where we're retroactively funding a government which is preexisting and whose outer boundaries are known and agreed to. This a function of, essentially, Congress creating the government for the next fiscal year.

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by cronus » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:59 pm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... lgRrNLUk3k

The maths that saw the US shutdown coming

ON THE surface it seems inexplicable. The government of the most powerful country on earth has shut down and is dangerously close to defaulting on its debt. Its people and economy are feeling the consequences, and a new global financial crisis might not be far behind. And all this because a minority faction of one house of Congress will not approve a budget unless a healthcare measure that has already been passed into law is suspended.

But for Peter Turchin, a mathematical ecologist at the University of Connecticut in Storrs, the stand-off was predictable. He is one of a small group of people applying the mathematics of complex systems to political instability. They have been anticipating events just like this – and they say that if we don't find some way to respond to the warning signs and change course, things are bound to get a lot worse before they get better.

Turchin has found what he believes to be historical cycles, two to three centuries long, of political instability and breakdown affecting states and empires from Rome to Russia. In a book he is finishing, he argues that similar cycles are evident in US history, and that they are playing out to this day. He admits that his theory, built on a model that combines social and economic data, must be tested against real events – but unlike most historical theories, it can be. Meanwhile, he says, it "predicts the long-term conditions that led to this shutdown".

Workers or employees make up the bulk of any society, with a minority of employers constituting the top few per cent of earners. By mathematically modelling historical data, Turchin finds that as population grows, workers start to outnumber available jobs, driving down wages. The wealthy elite then end up with an even greater share of the economic pie, and inequality soars. This is borne out in the US, for example, where average wages have stagnated since the 1970s although gross domestic product has steadily climbed.

This process also creates new avenues – such as increased access to higher education – that allow a few workers to join the elite, swelling their ranks. Eventually this results in what Turchin calls "elite overproduction" – there being more people in the elite than there are top jobs. "Then competition starts to get ugly," he says.

The richest continue to become richer: as in many complex systems, whether in nature or in society, existing advantage feeds back positively to create yet more. The rest of the elite fight it out, with rival patronage networks battling ever more fiercely. "There are always ideological differences, but elite overproduction explains why competition becomes so bitter, with no one willing to compromise," Turchin says. This means the squabbling in Congress that precipitated the current shutdown is a symptom of societal forces at work, rather than the primary problem.

In Turchin's theory, such political acrimony is paralleled by rising discontent among workers left with less and less, and increasing state bankruptcy as spending by the elite who control the government coffers spirals. Ultimately, the situation gets so bad that order cannot be maintained and the state collapses. A new cycle begins.

It may sound far-fetched. But in the last century, a slew of variables ranging from labour supply to public health indices, income inequality and the numbers and behaviour of the elite rose and fell in sync and as predicted by the theory. And with each glut of workers and peak in inequality came a surge in political violence.

Turchin finds that a simple mathematical model, combining economic output per person, the balance of labour demand and supply, and changes in attitudes towards redistributing wealth – the minimum wage level is one proxy for this – generates a curve that exactly matches the change in real wages since 1930, including complex rises and falls since 1980. Such close agreement between model and reality is exceptional in social sciences, says Turchin, and shows that all three factors control the rise of inequality, as predicted.

(continued)
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Tero » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:16 pm

Ah. Will there still be chips abd beer, though? And internet? Who needs jobs.

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by cronus » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:21 pm

Tero wrote:Ah. Will there still be chips abd beer, though? And internet? Who needs jobs.
In the future all will be well. :coffee:
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Tero » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:40 pm

>>This a function of, essentially, Congress creating the government for the next fiscal year.<<

And they have not done a day of work on it since spring. In order to sneak in "defund Obamacare" at the last minute.

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by cronus » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:49 pm

Tero wrote:>>This a function of, essentially, Congress creating the government for the next fiscal year.<<

And they have not done a day of work on it since spring. In order to sneak in "defund Obamacare" at the last minute.
Some volcanoes are so large you only realise you are in a disaster movie when it is too late to cancel the directors contract. Soviet union collapse had nothing on this baby when she blows. :crumple:
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:00 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
Seth wrote:
Ian wrote:Terrorists are more rational. When they take hostages, they tend to make demands that could actually be met. And they like to have a viable exit strategy.
You mean like those Somali pirate terrorists who took Capt. Phillips hostage a few years ago? They had an exit plan. Didn't work out any better for them than it will for the democrat party, although they did exit, rather abruptly, all at once.

BTW, "Captain Phillips" is an outstanding movie. And "Gravity" is an unbelievable miracle of a movie, I unreservedly recommend it, but see it in the theater in 3D.
My understanding is that everyone else on board the ship was less than thrilled with Captain Phillips, since it was his recklessness and disregard for instructions that put him too close to the Somalia pirate areas.
Well, they address that in the movie actually. After his crew complains he tells them that there are at least 3 bands of pirates, one at 200 miles, one at 300 miles and one at 600 miles. He also points out that their job is to get cargo from point a to point b as quickly as possible, so it makes little difference, which is probably true. He could also have traveled with the convoy that was ahead of him, which in the movie the pirates decided not to attack. So he made calculated decisions, not reckless ones.

That being said, the movie is about what happened after they were hijacked, and there's no disputing that he acted in the finest traditions of the sea in letting himself be taken hostage to protect his ship and his crew.

The real reckless conduct is by the ship owners who refuse to provide armed security forces on board the ships. The US should be issuing Letters of Marque to private organizations (like Xe/Blackwater) so they can send private armed escort vessels with the ships at the ship company's expense.

It's idiocy to send unarmed merchant vessels into pirate zones, so I don't feel at all bad for the shipping companies, though I do have concerns for the crews...who sign on knowing the risks. Still, at least THEY should be armed.

And damn, those SEALs are good!
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Collector1337 wrote:
subversive science wrote:For the past five years Obama has tried to compromise, the Republicans have acted like compromise is a bad word. Now that they are in a weak position, they are crying "Why won't he compromise?" all while holding a gun to the head of our country.

Well, you know what? We don't negotiate with terrorists.
:fp:
Oh yeah... :fp: to the max.

If the Republicans are in such a "weak position" how come the President is negotiating with them right now? And I mean this very second. And what are the dems so upset about if the Republicans are so "weak?"

The whole point here is that they are NOT weak, they hold two trump cards: The budget and the debt ceiling.

Obama and the dems say "we'll negotiate only if you abandon your trump cards and render your party completely toothless first." I don't think the Republicans are stupid enough to believe that if they capitulate on the budget and debt ceiling that the dems will ACTUALLY negotiate in good faith, because they are lying assholes.

No, what they would inevitably do is get what they want, go to a "conference committee" and "negotiate" by saying "Hey, we got what we wanted and you've got no leverage left, so go fuck yourselves."

That's exactly what they did with Obamacare in the first place, which is why the Republicans walked out. We're not trusting them again.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:15 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:How long can this go on? Isn't there some sort of constitutional tie breaker that can force government to resume being a government? Or could this theoretically go on without an end in sight?
Theoretically it could go on for quite a while. But running a government with so many workers being furloughed is like running your engine with the Check Oil light on. It'll keep going a ways, but things will start to wear down and there could be some very bad damage resulting from it.

But so far, the worst result may be damage to the Republican Party. The civil war within it is becoming more obvious by the day, and their public approval is in the toilet: yesterday Gallup had the party's approval rating at 28%, a record low for that polling company. And a new NBC/WSJ poll today has even worse results:
Americans blamed Republicans over President Barack Obama for thby a margin of 22 percentage points, with 53 percent saying the GOP deserved more blame, and 31 percent saying Obama did. Approval ratings for the Republican Party and the tea party were at 24 percent and 21 percent respectively -- both record lows as measured by NBC/WSJ. Obama's approval rating is a marginally positive 47 percent.
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... s-gop?lite
Why are all of these polls asking whether it's Republicans to blame or "Obama?" Why don't they ask if the Democrats are to blame. Since most Americans blame "Congress," and Obama is not in Congress, it stands to reason that they would certainly blame Republicans and not Obama personally (as much). However, if they were asked whether they blame the Democrats and the Republicans, I bet the number is much closer.

Further, it's not really a shutdown. It's a partial shutdown. Like 83 or 85% of the workers are still working. Essential government functions, construed VERY broadly, obviously, are getting done. No disaster is is impending. This is a bump in the road.
Besides, who in their right mind believes NBC disinformation in the first place? NBC has been in the bag for Obama from the very beginning and constitutes nothing more than the Pravda of America and is merely an Obama lackey telling the Big Lie to try to make it into the perceived truth.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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