If the community does not wish to assist in vindicating my rights, I either take action on my own using whatever force is necessary, or I move on to another community that is more amenable and respectful of individual rights. Or I organize a group of Libertarians to assist me in enforcing my rights, using whatever force is necessary.Gerald McGrew wrote:Let's say whatever community we live in sides with me. The nuclear plant that provides the electricity needs a place to store their waste, and people need a place to take their old car tires. I provide those services.
When you go whining about dirty air and malformed kids, you get no sympathy from the community.
Now what do you do?
Libertarianism
Re: Libertarianism
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Libertarianism
Spoken like a true quisling, coward and supporter of tyranny.MrJonno wrote:Spoken like a true terroristThe philosophy of cowards. What happens when you run out of places to run and hide? I prefer to remove any government that wants to kill me using whatever force is required to do so and replace it with a government that will respect my rights.
The good news is that I have the guns, the training, and the determination to use them. You've got nothing, so you're just totally fucked.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: Libertarianism
That's ludicrous on its face.MrJonno wrote:Government through more can be a villain (through I would argue no government has ever killed anyone only the general public acting with the government can achieve this) ,
Nobody is suggesting "no government at all." Well, except anarchists and communists, which Libertarians aren't, by and large.MrJonno wrote: but most people can survive an oppressive government few people can survive no government at all.
Clearly. However, the fact remains, the cocoon, the little fragile bubble, that you live in is just that -- a tiny, fragile, isolated, exception to the prevailing way of things.MrJonno wrote:
If the government wants to you kill its probably time to find somewhere else to live rather than worry about what your 'rights' are
...and they very commonly line people up and execute them.MrJonno wrote:
Complete anarchy for anything other than an extremely short time is almost unheard off, someone usually the military will step in if no one else does.
What the fuck do you think is happening in Syria? Egypt? In Egypt, the "government" is crucifying dissidents to show folks who is in charge. In Syria the government destroying lives by rolling over them with tanks.
Anyone whose answer is that the people just ought to have done what they are told is missing a huge point here.
And, again... it is no answer to say "oh, that's egypt and syria, not here in the real world." That IS the real world, and those same things HAVE happened "here" and can very likely happen again. That sort of thing is the norm, not the exception.
I think it's something some folks in the West have forgotten. We are the lucky ones. The few. We are the one-half of one-half of one percent.
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Re: Libertarianism
you forgot portugalCoito ergo sum wrote:Neither Seth, nor Jonno are correct.
What Seth is missing is that merely having a few guns isn't going to mean you'll survive anarchy.
And, what Jonno forgets is that as often as not, the government is the villain. To think "it can't happen here" because we in the west are so enlightened is missing a big dose of history.
It DID happen here. It CAN happen here. And, it very likely WILL happen here (meaning somewhere in the West) again. It DID happen in Russia. It DID happen in Germany. It DID happen in Serbia. It DID happen in Yugoslavia. Bosnia happened. Mussolini happpened in Italy. Spain was a dictatorship until the 1970s.
This is not ancient history.
Parliamentary Democracy -- Republicanism -- these are the exception, not the rule.
To think one is "safe" unless the government collapses ignores not only what is possible, but what is historically the norm. To think that humans have fundamentally changed in only a generation or two, in in only a small portion of the world, is to ignore reality.

I have a well balanced personality. I've got chips on both shoulders
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Re: Libertarianism
There is no community. There is no civilization. That's what George Stewart points out in the book, which you said you'd read.Seth wrote:If the community does not wish to assist in vindicating my rights, I either take action on my own using whatever force is necessary, or I move on to another community that is more amenable and respectful of individual rights. Or I organize a group of Libertarians to assist me in enforcing my rights, using whatever force is necessary.Gerald McGrew wrote:Let's say whatever community we live in sides with me. The nuclear plant that provides the electricity needs a place to store their waste, and people need a place to take their old car tires. I provide those services.
When you go whining about dirty air and malformed kids, you get no sympathy from the community.
Now what do you do?
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Re: Libertarianism
Since when is Libertarianism about what to do when civilization collapses?Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And that's the ore taken care of. But how did you get there? And once you have the ore, who does the refining? Where do they get their materials? Who teaches them how to refine it? And then we move on to the processes that use the moly. You have to do all that yourself when you're the survivor of a civilization-wide collapse.Seth wrote:From the miners at the Amax molybdenum mine north of Leadville.Gawdzilla Sama wrote:The cause of the collapse don't change the outcome. You use molybdenum. Where you going to get that after the collapse?Seth wrote:Read it many times. Not really applicable to the sort of civil unrest and mass starvation caused by the dependent class eating each other.Gawdzilla Sama wrote:The Earth Abides. You should read this.
Really, "Libertarianism" should be called "The Back to Alley Oop Movement."
Look - the bottom line is, we're on a knife edge, and if, say, the electrical grid collapses, the United States will cease to be a nation in, say, 90 days to 6 months on the outside. Period. It won't matter who is Republican, Democrat, Royalist or Libertarian, or Communist, Socialist or Buddhist.
The change would be so dramatic that what came out the other side would look nothing like what is here now.
Minimum, tens of millions of people would die in the span of months that could be counted on fingers and toes. We'd lose water, food, and transportation, and the system that allows 300 odd million to survive would be gone. Seth is right that having guns and training would give him an advantage over the unarmed and stupid, but even that wouldn't be enough.
What would really happen is that the country would break up int hundreds of different fiefdoms and people would rally around charismatic and powerful leaders. Nobody could predict what it would be like in 1, 2 or 5 years, because it would descend into chaos.
But, Libertarianism is not survivalism. It's a political philosophy which presupposes that there is a government. It doesn't presuppose that there isn't one.
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Re: Libertarianism
Ah, see there's your problem. You're assuming I don't own guns and am not able to meet you with equal or greater force. Also, I'm not dumping anything on your property. If you just happen to be downwind and get some tire smoke, and downstream and get some nuclear waste, that's your problem.Seth wrote:What's vague about it? If you dump trash on my lot, I'll come over and take you by the ear and make you clean it up. If you resist, I'll thump you thoroughly and then take you by the ear and make you clean it up. If you resist with violence, I'll use whatever force is called for, up to and including lethal force to defend my life, and then I'll take you by the ear and make you clean it up...if you survive.
Except as I pointed out, the community supports the services I provide, to which you answered...If you still refuse, then the community will boycott you. They will neither sell to you or buy from you. You will find no employment, food, shelter, or other goods available to you. You will be shunned and excluded from all social intercourse.
And this is exactly why extreme libertarianism is so stupid. It's nothing more than a "wild west" mentality.If the community does not wish to assist in vindicating my rights, I either take action on my own using whatever force is necessary, or I move on to another community that is more amenable and respectful of individual rights. Or I organize a group of Libertarians to assist me in enforcing my rights, using whatever force is necessary.
*shrug* Good luck. I'll shoot you the second you step foot on my property. That's my right, right?If I'm not capable of enforcing my rights, I'll call upon my friends and neighbors and explain your antisocial acts to them and persuade them to assist me in taking you by the ear and making you clean it up, using whatever force is required to make you do so.
Your posts speak for themselves. Your solution to conflicts and disputes is "might makes right". If I have a better bunker with more guns, then whatever I do is right because you are unable to force me to stop.I think you don't understand Libertarian philosophy.
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.
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Re: Libertarianism
And, Greece, yes, I know....I'm typing extemporaneously, and can't be expected to remember every brutal dictatorship....colubridae wrote:you forgot portugalCoito ergo sum wrote:Neither Seth, nor Jonno are correct.
What Seth is missing is that merely having a few guns isn't going to mean you'll survive anarchy.
And, what Jonno forgets is that as often as not, the government is the villain. To think "it can't happen here" because we in the west are so enlightened is missing a big dose of history.
It DID happen here. It CAN happen here. And, it very likely WILL happen here (meaning somewhere in the West) again. It DID happen in Russia. It DID happen in Germany. It DID happen in Serbia. It DID happen in Yugoslavia. Bosnia happened. Mussolini happpened in Italy. Spain was a dictatorship until the 1970s.
This is not ancient history.
Parliamentary Democracy -- Republicanism -- these are the exception, not the rule.
To think one is "safe" unless the government collapses ignores not only what is possible, but what is historically the norm. To think that humans have fundamentally changed in only a generation or two, in in only a small portion of the world, is to ignore reality.

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Re: Libertarianism
You read the part before my statement, right?Coito ergo sum wrote:Since when is Libertarianism about what to do when civilization collapses?Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Really, "Libertarianism" should be called "The Back to Alley Oop Movement."
Liberians believe they can live without most of civilization. If most of civilization was gone we'd all be Liberians. Because we'd be forced to be Liberians. But we'd be living at grunt level.
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Re: Libertarianism
CES,
But what's fun is trying to get today's libertarians to identify the line between "good gov't" and "bad gov't". The ones I encounter are so defensive and wedded to their ideology of "gov't is bad", they'll pretty much argue against even the most basic of gov't functions (as we see in this thread). Heck, we can't even get some folks to agree that having a police dep't is a good thing!Nobody is suggesting "no government at all." Well, except anarchists and communists, which Libertarians aren't, by and large.
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.
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Re: Libertarianism
They do tend to struggle with stating honestly "I only want what benefits me and fuck everybody else." I've got a few of them to say that before, and it was funny to watch them blush at the shear greediness of the verbalized thoughts.Gerald McGrew wrote:CES,
But what's fun is trying to get today's libertarians to identify the line between "good gov't" and "bad gov't". The ones I encounter are so defensive and wedded to their ideology of "gov't is bad", they'll pretty much argue against even the most basic of gov't functions (as we see in this thread). Heck, we can't even get some folks to agree that having a police dep't is a good thing!Nobody is suggesting "no government at all." Well, except anarchists and communists, which Libertarians aren't, by and large.
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Re: Libertarianism
What's really fun is to get them to realize how absolutely un-patriotic that is. Many of the libertarians I know are very big on wrapping themselves in the flag, so getting them to realize the "everyone for themselves" mentality is rather un-patriotic is quite the journey.Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Gerald McGrew wrote:They do tend to struggle with stating honestly "I only want what benefits me and fuck everybody else." I've got a few of them to say that before, and it was funny to watch them blush at the shear greediness of the verbalized thoughts.
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.
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Re: Libertarianism
They tend to believe in an America that doesn't exist, one where a single man can go out, build a castle, and stock it with women, kids, dogs and cattle, and never have to do business with anyone they don't care too.Gerald McGrew wrote:What's really fun is to get them to realize how absolutely un-patriotic that is. Many of the libertarians I know are very big on wrapping themselves in the flag, so getting them to realize the "everyone for themselves" mentality is rather un-patriotic is quite the journey.Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Gerald McGrew wrote:They do tend to struggle with stating honestly "I only want what benefits me and fuck everybody else." I've got a few of them to say that before, and it was funny to watch them blush at the shear greediness of the verbalized thoughts.
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Re: Libertarianism
...or you compromise, or you live a solitary life separated from the society of others...Seth wrote:If the community does not wish to assist in vindicating my rights, I either take action on my own using whatever force is necessary, or I move on to another community that is more amenable and respectful of individual rights. Or I organize a group of Libertarians to assist me in enforcing my rights, using whatever force is necessary.Gerald McGrew wrote:Let's say whatever community we live in sides with me. The nuclear plant that provides the electricity needs a place to store their waste, and people need a place to take their old car tires. I provide those services.
When you go whining about dirty air and malformed kids, you get no sympathy from the community.
Now what do you do?

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Libertarianism
And if you live in an area prone to wildfires you have to refuse assistance from the fire department, because they receive federal funds, including assistance from firefighting aircraft that are also federally funded or supported.Brian Peacock wrote:...or you compromise, or you live a solitary life separated from the society of others...Seth wrote:If the community does not wish to assist in vindicating my rights, I either take action on my own using whatever force is necessary, or I move on to another community that is more amenable and respectful of individual rights. Or I organize a group of Libertarians to assist me in enforcing my rights, using whatever force is necessary.Gerald McGrew wrote:Let's say whatever community we live in sides with me. The nuclear plant that provides the electricity needs a place to store their waste, and people need a place to take their old car tires. I provide those services.
When you go whining about dirty air and malformed kids, you get no sympathy from the community.
Now what do you do?
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