Is the USA uncivilised?

[Blind groper]

And I've told you many times that the embargo is justified by the evil nature of the Castro government, which makes your argument 100% evasive and mendacious.

That, Seth, like so many of your arguments, is irrational and based on emotional response. A rational decision maker develops policy in order to achieve practical results. Not to demonstrate how much they hate someone or something. If the embargo does not create an improvement, it should be dumped. In 55 years, it has not achieved anything. There fore it should be dumped. Any other choice lacks rationality.

[Blind groper]

Honestly, for someone to suggest, as Blind Groper did, that Cuban-Americans are brainwashed idiots who have been indoctrinated by "US government propaganda" is so staggeringly stupid I can hardly believe someone would make such a claim with a straight face.

Actually, I did not use those words. However, I will agree that Cuban Americans do not need to be brainwashed to hate the Cuban government. That does not mean their attitudes will be rational. Anyone who is strongly motivated on an issue by pure emotion cannot be considered to be rational on that topic.

I agree that the Cuban government is nasty. But I strongly disagree that a 55 year old embargo that achieves exactly nothing, except to exacerbate the poverty and suffering of the Cuban people, can be justified. 98% of the United Nations members agree with me.

[JimC]

I would tend to agree with Ian that spin and bias in the news are not the same as propaganda.

However, whether or not the US government engages in propaganda is beside the point I was making in my last response to Blind Groper.

The point I was making was that the US government needn't brainwash Cuban immigrants with anti-Castro, anti-communist propaganda because it stands to reason that Cubans who fled Cuba during or after the revolution probably already harbored ill feelings toward Castro and communism before they ever even set foot on US soil. These people wouldn't have fled in the first place, had they liked what they saw. Why on earth would the US government need to brainwash people into hating a regime they had already risked life and limb to escape??

Honestly, for someone to suggest, as Blind Groper did, that Cuban-Americans are brainwashed idiots who have been indoctrinated by "US government propaganda" is so staggeringly stupid I can hardly believe someone would make such a claim with a straight face.

Particularly during and after the revolution, many of those who fled (often with substantial resources) would have been wealthy Cubans, who were going to face confiscation of estates and fortunes, substantial loss of power, and most probably worse. It was a no-brainer for them to flee. The real question is what happened to the majority of Cubans, once the initial chaos had settled down. Undoubtedly some loss of freedom, but for many, a substantial improvement in food security and health.

But yes, I agree that no US propaganda would be required to maintain the simmering resentment of the exiles. The real question is whether those exiles and their descendants can take the moral high ground, or to assert a right to exert power and influence in a future Cuba... They made their US bed, now they can lie in it...

[Warren Dew]

I would tend to agree with Ian that spin and bias in the news are not the same as propaganda.

However, whether or not the US government engages in propaganda is beside the point I was making in my last response to Blind Groper.

The point I was making was that the US government needn't brainwash Cuban immigrants with anti-Castro, anti-communist propaganda because it stands to reason that Cubans who fled Cuba during or after the revolution probably already harbored ill feelings toward Castro and communism before they ever even set foot on US soil. These people wouldn't have fled in the first place, had they liked what they saw. Why on earth would the US government need to brainwash people into hating a regime they had already risked life and limb to escape??

Honestly, for someone to suggest, as Blind Groper did, that Cuban-Americans are brainwashed idiots who have been indoctrinated by "US government propaganda" is so staggeringly stupid I can hardly believe someone would make such a claim with a straight face.

Particularly during and after the revolution, many of those who fled (often with substantial resources) would have been wealthy Cubans, who were going to face confiscation of estates and fortunes, substantial loss of power, and most probably worse.

You mean like Ted Cruz's father, who was imprisoned by Batista, fought for Castro, then fled Cuba at 18 when he finally figured out how evil Castro was?

But yes, I agree that no US propaganda would be required to maintain the simmering resentment of the exiles. The real question is whether those exiles and their descendants can take the moral high ground, or to assert a right to exert power and influence in a future Cuba... They made their US bed, now they can lie in it...

The refugees already tried asserting a right to exert power and influence over Cuba. Unfortunately, Kennedy didn't adequately back them up, so the Bay of Pigs invasion was a disaster.

[JimC]

Warren Dew wrote:

The refugees already tried asserting a right to exert power and influence over Cuba. Unfortunately, Kennedy didn't adequately back them up, so the Bay of Pigs invasion was a disaster.

And perhaps the anti-Castro sentiments everyone assumed would be rampant were no where near strong enough among the masses to make a "revolution against the revolution" succeed?

As many other posters have already said, I'm not saying the Castros or the regime was saintly. There was a strong element of violent authoritarian rule, and clearly a new elite enjoying its power and privileges. Nor am I saying that any relatively free democratic society here and now would be remotely tempted to take a similar path to revolutionary Cuba.

What I am asserting was that a violent revolution was a reasonable response to the oppression of the Batista years, and, for the poor majority of Cubans at the time, there were material benefits. Given time, and contact with the west, Cuban society will evolve in a more democratic direction; what they don't need are carpetbaggers from Florida...

[Seth]

And I've told you many times that the embargo is justified by the evil nature of the Castro government, which makes your argument 100% evasive and mendacious.

That, Seth, like so many of your arguments, is irrational and based on emotional response. A rational decision maker develops policy in order to achieve practical results. Not to demonstrate how much they hate someone or something. If the embargo does not create an improvement, it should be dumped. In 55 years, it has not achieved anything. There fore it should be dumped. Any other choice lacks rationality.

It keeps things from getting much, much worse, which is it's purpose.

[Pappa]

I have a tighter definition of the word. Spin doctoring and any hype made by a sports or entertainment personality could be considered propaganda if the definition is loose enough. But I think it's too much of an accusation to have a loose definition. Propaganda is what Goebbels and Stalin's information cronies did. If you know you can't control the information but only try to influence it, it shouldn't be called propaganda.

Ok, that's your definition, but it's not the generally accepted definition of the word. It seems pretty standard that spin-doctoring, misinformation and manipulation of facts and the media are considered "propaganda".

[Seabass]

I would tend to agree with Ian that spin and bias in the news are not the same as propaganda.

However, whether or not the US government engages in propaganda is beside the point I was making in my last response to Blind Groper.

The point I was making was that the US government needn't brainwash Cuban immigrants with anti-Castro, anti-communist propaganda because it stands to reason that Cubans who fled Cuba during or after the revolution probably already harbored ill feelings toward Castro and communism before they ever even set foot on US soil. These people wouldn't have fled in the first place, had they liked what they saw. Why on earth would the US government need to brainwash people into hating a regime they had already risked life and limb to escape??

Honestly, for someone to suggest, as Blind Groper did, that Cuban-Americans are brainwashed idiots who have been indoctrinated by "US government propaganda" is so staggeringly stupid I can hardly believe someone would make such a claim with a straight face.

Particularly during and after the revolution, many of those who fled (often with substantial resources) would have been wealthy Cubans, who were going to face confiscation of estates and fortunes, substantial loss of power, and most probably worse. It was a no-brainer for them to flee. The real question is what happened to the majority of Cubans, once the initial chaos had settled down. Undoubtedly some loss of freedom, but for many, a substantial improvement in food security and health.

But yes, I agree that no US propaganda would be required to maintain the simmering resentment of the exiles. The real question is whether those exiles and their descendants can take the moral high ground, or to assert a right to exert power and influence in a future Cuba... They made their US bed, now they can lie in it...

Well, if that is the real question, then no, no they don't. Not via the U.S. government anyway.

[JimC]

I would tend to agree with Ian that spin and bias in the news are not the same as propaganda.

However, whether or not the US government engages in propaganda is beside the point I was making in my last response to Blind Groper.

The point I was making was that the US government needn't brainwash Cuban immigrants with anti-Castro, anti-communist propaganda because it stands to reason that Cubans who fled Cuba during or after the revolution probably already harbored ill feelings toward Castro and communism before they ever even set foot on US soil. These people wouldn't have fled in the first place, had they liked what they saw. Why on earth would the US government need to brainwash people into hating a regime they had already risked life and limb to escape??

Honestly, for someone to suggest, as Blind Groper did, that Cuban-Americans are brainwashed idiots who have been indoctrinated by "US government propaganda" is so staggeringly stupid I can hardly believe someone would make such a claim with a straight face.

Particularly during and after the revolution, many of those who fled (often with substantial resources) would have been wealthy Cubans, who were going to face confiscation of estates and fortunes, substantial loss of power, and most probably worse. It was a no-brainer for them to flee. The real question is what happened to the majority of Cubans, once the initial chaos had settled down. Undoubtedly some loss of freedom, but for many, a substantial improvement in food security and health.

But yes, I agree that no US propaganda would be required to maintain the simmering resentment of the exiles. The real question is whether those exiles and their descendants can take the moral high ground, or to assert a right to exert power and influence in a future Cuba... They made their US bed, now they can lie in it...

Well, if that is the real question, then no, no they don't. Not via the U.S. government anyway.

If they moved back (when Cuba has evolved somewhat down the democratic path), renounced US citizenship and became Cuban nationals, they would have a right to have a voice in the new direction for Cuba. (Which would not include trying to re-claim their great-grandfather's plantation...)

[pErvinalia]

It sound to me like you choose to keep your head in the sand regarding the evils of the Castro regime merely in order to once again vilify the United States.

Not very rational of you.

No, Seth.

It is not very intelligent of you to draw this conclusion. I have told you at least three times that we are all aware of the fact that the Castro government is nasty. The issue is not how nasty they are, but whether the embargo is justified. Your argument is 100% straw man.

And I've told you many times that the embargo is justified by the evil nature of the Castro government,

The "evil nature", hey? Well in that case the US should embargo itself. I've always said the biggest terrorist threat to the US is the Republican party. The US should embargo itself and drone bomb the Republican party. Everyone wins!

[JimC]

It sound to me like you choose to keep your head in the sand regarding the evils of the Castro regime merely in order to once again vilify the United States.

Not very rational of you.

No, Seth.

It is not very intelligent of you to draw this conclusion. I have told you at least three times that we are all aware of the fact that the Castro government is nasty. The issue is not how nasty they are, but whether the embargo is justified. Your argument is 100% straw man.

And I've told you many times that the embargo is justified by the evil nature of the Castro government,

The "evil nature", hey? Well in that case the US should embargo itself. I've always said the biggest terrorist threat to the US is the Republican party. The US should embargo itself and drone bomb the Republican party. Everyone wins!

Seth may agree - the GOP is suspiciously pink, remember...

[Seabass]

I would tend to agree with Ian that spin and bias in the news are not the same as propaganda.

However, whether or not the US government engages in propaganda is beside the point I was making in my last response to Blind Groper.

The point I was making was that the US government needn't brainwash Cuban immigrants with anti-Castro, anti-communist propaganda because it stands to reason that Cubans who fled Cuba during or after the revolution probably already harbored ill feelings toward Castro and communism before they ever even set foot on US soil. These people wouldn't have fled in the first place, had they liked what they saw. Why on earth would the US government need to brainwash people into hating a regime they had already risked life and limb to escape??

Honestly, for someone to suggest, as Blind Groper did, that Cuban-Americans are brainwashed idiots who have been indoctrinated by "US government propaganda" is so staggeringly stupid I can hardly believe someone would make such a claim with a straight face.

Particularly during and after the revolution, many of those who fled (often with substantial resources) would have been wealthy Cubans, who were going to face confiscation of estates and fortunes, substantial loss of power, and most probably worse. It was a no-brainer for them to flee. The real question is what happened to the majority of Cubans, once the initial chaos had settled down. Undoubtedly some loss of freedom, but for many, a substantial improvement in food security and health.

But yes, I agree that no US propaganda would be required to maintain the simmering resentment of the exiles. The real question is whether those exiles and their descendants can take the moral high ground, or to assert a right to exert power and influence in a future Cuba... They made their US bed, now they can lie in it...

Well, if that is the real question, then no, no they don't. Not via the U.S. government anyway.

If they moved back (when Cuba has evolved somewhat down the democratic path), renounced US citizenship and became Cuban nationals, they would have a right to have a voice in the new direction for Cuba. (Which would not include trying to re-claim their great-grandfather's plantation...)

I agree for the most part. However, I have no problem with Cuban expats supporting political movements or factions in Cuba who seek to make Cuba more democratic, so long as the U.S. isn't involved. I can't fault someone for making efforts to bring forth positive change in their country of origin.


I'm also not really buying this narrative that Cuban expats are a bunch of dastardly, rich, robber barons who keep their money in solid gold money clips, and who want to return Cuba to the glory days of the Batista era. I've known a lot of Vietnamese and Cambodian immigrants who were just average people who decided to flee brutal, despotic, communist regimes for the prospect of finding better lives for their families in the U.S. I would imagine the plight of your average Cuban-American is probably pretty similar. Though I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time...

[Blind groper]

It keeps things from getting much, much worse, which is it's purpose.

Seth

That reply is like so many of yours. Pure opinion with no data to back it up. How can you say the embargo is preventing things getting worse? After all, Cuba is one of the very few communist governments that have not changed for the better. Even China has introduced a hell of a lot of reforms in the line of permitting private enterprize. Cuba is perhaps the most unreformed of all communist states, despite the ludicrous 55 year embargo. IMHO, it is much more likely that the embargo is stopping reform, by pissing off the Castro brothers so much they refuse to accept change. Politicians are often irrational.

[JimC]

It keeps things from getting much, much worse, which is it's purpose.

Seth

That reply is like so many of yours. Pure opinion with no data to back it up. How can you say the embargo is preventing things getting worse? After all, Cuba is one of the very few communist governments that have not changed for the better. Even China has introduced a hell of a lot of reforms in the line of permitting private enterprize. Cuba is perhaps the most unreformed of all communist states, despite the ludicrous 55 year embargo. IMHO, it is much more likely that the embargo is stopping reform, by pissing off the Castro brothers so much they refuse to accept change. Politicians are often irrational.

And even more by simply reducing the amount of interactions between Cubans and the rest of the world.

[Hermit]

"Propaganda" is a term used by insular or desperate people. Any fool can point to information he doesn't want to hear and call it propaganda. But the US government does not control the media, and propaganda is thus an incorrect term as it cannot apply here.

If you know you can't control the information but only try to influence it, it shouldn't be called propaganda.

• Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda statements may be partly false and partly true. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.
  
  As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political, religious or commercial agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare.
  
  While the term propaganda has acquired a strongly negative connotation by association with its most manipulative and jingoistic examples (e.g. Nazi propaganda used to justify the Holocaust), propaganda in its original sense was neutral, and could refer to uses that were generally benign or innocuous, such as public health recommendations, signs encouraging citizens to participate in a census or election, or messages encouraging persons to report crimes to law enforcement, among others.

Read on here, if you please. Hopefully, it will help you rid yourself of your misconceptions about what propaganda is.