The Hillary Thread II

[Forty Two]

You've not provided any evidence of "damage."

Maybe you can just say what the damage is. Is the damage that China is "watching the developments closely?" Is the damage that China is peeved at the idea of a move away from the old policy?

Shit man, that's international relations. Countries get peeved. Do you think Hillary Clinton "damaged relations with Russia" with her comments?

Lol, here comes the tu quoque by proxy again.

Oy ve. It's not "tu quoque." It's an example. Hillary's comments did not "damage relations with Russia." That was the point. It wasn't an argument that because she did it, it's o.k.

As you say, it's international relations. Damage doesn't need to constitute war. International relations has its own language and protocols. China is clearly invoking that language now. And it's no surprise as this is the most sensitive issue to China. It's not surprising that an idiot like Trump, and his cheerleader here, don't quite grasp the magnitude of what's going on.

LOL - you are so naive.

The "magnitude" of the suggestion that we may not need to strictly continue the one China policy. The "magnitude" of taking a call from the Prime Minister of Taiwan. LOL. You're silly.

[pErvinalia]

As I said, you don't understand how important this is to China. You might "lol", but they aren't, and certainly won't if he follows through with overturning traditional US policy regarding China-Taiwan.

[Jason]

So much of the market is determined by speculation and Trump is causing a lot of troubling waves with his talk of tariffs and Taiwan.

[pErvinalia]

It's interesting to consider who has the most economic power in the China-US relationship. I don't actually know who comes out on top, but they both benefit greatly from the other. I suspect that the US depends on China more than China depends on the US, as China has a burgeoning middle class that is coming up to replace the eventually failing debt-funded US consumerism. If US ramps up tariffs, it will hurt the US more than China, probably.

[Forty Two]

I understand it fine, lol. You don't understand what it means when a chinese official says "we're watching it closely." You think that's "damage" to US-Chinese relations.

I LOL because you're just being silly. There have been serious diplomatic relations issues over the last 40 years - far more serious than a president-elect mentioning that he may deal with Taiwan officially, rather than just unofficially. China became enraged by a decision by the Bill Clinton government to allow the Taiwanese President a visa in the mid-1990s. Oh, my word! He "damaged US-China relations!" China didn't like it!

The parties here are just staking out negotiating positions. Relax.

[pErvinalia]

I understand it fine, lol. You don't understand what it means when a chinese official says "we're watching it closely." You think that's "damage" to US-Chinese relations.

That's not what was said. A lot more was said. Stop pretending that was all that was said.

I LOL because you're just being silly.

And I'm trying to explain to you how much of a serious issue this is for the Chinese.

There have been serious diplomatic relations issues over the last 40 years - far more serious than a president-elect mentioning that he may deal with Taiwan officially, rather than just unofficially.

False dichotomy fallacy. Just because there are more serious diplomatic fallouts, doesn't mean that Trump isn't damaging US-China relations.

The parties here are just staking out negotiating positions. Relax.

Bullshit. You really don't understand how serious the issue of Taiwan is to China.

[Forty Two]

I understand it fine, lol. You don't understand what it means when a chinese official says "we're watching it closely." You think that's "damage" to US-Chinese relations.

That's not what was said. A lot more was said. Stop pretending that was all that was said.

I'm not going to retype everything. It's a shorthand reference to what you posted, and what the Chinese said was their position. Big fucking deal. US Chinese relations have been tense and hard-fought for decades, dude. This isn't some "damaging" thing -- where China is actually doing anything as a result. Who gives a flying fuck if some officials aren't pleased with some rhetoric here and there? Who gives a fuck if they're not all kissy kissy? This isn't a schoolyard game of "he called me names!!" - these are big boys, playing a big game, and their not concerned about politeness, they're concerned about global strategic influence and trillion dollar economics, FFS. This isn't Tumblr activism.

I LOL because you're just being silly.

And I'm trying to explain to you how much of a serious issue this is for the Chinese.

LOL - explain it, then. You're saying "this is a serious issue" - but, you haven't explained what the "damage to US Chinese relations" is. Are you saying that the Chinese saying that this is a foundational issue for them, and that "one China" policy is not to be fucked with, etc., is "damage" to US Chinese relations? Are you saying that Trump raising the issue as possibly due for a change is "damage" to the relationship?

You seem to consider a declaration that "this is a serious issue for the Chinese" to be an explanation for how invoking the one china policy is "damage to the US China relations." It isn't.

There have been serious diplomatic relations issues over the last 40 years - far more serious than a president-elect mentioning that he may deal with Taiwan officially, rather than just unofficially.

False dichotomy fallacy. Just because there are more serious diplomatic fallouts, doesn't mean that Trump isn't damaging US-China relations.

You need to establish that he is damaging US China Relations. Saying "this is a serious issue for the Chinese" doesn't establish anything close to damage to the relationship. What part or parts of the relationship have been damaged? What's changed? You said it's "already damaged?" Has China decided not to do something as a result of Trump? Have they decided to do something because of Trump? You tell me.

If it's just that china has rattled off some rhetoric about how serious the matter is, let me know. If that's what you think is "damage to the US Chinese relationship" then fine, that's what you think. If that's not it, then tell me what else, because so far that's all you've mentioned ,as far as I can tell.

The parties here are just staking out negotiating positions. Relax.

Bullshit. You really don't understand how serious the issue of Taiwan is to China.

Well, if you think so, then go ahead and explain it. Remember, saying "this is a serious issue" is begging the question.

Further, the fact that Trump poked a serious issue doesn't mean DAMAGE has ALREADY been done to US-China relations. Get it? Sure, it's fucking something they take seriously. Great. So, what fucking damage has been done, already, by the guy who hasn't been sworn into office yet, to US Chinese relations. FFS, man.

[pErvinalia]

The quotes explain how it is a serious issue. The Chinese are warning trump that if he goes through with it there will be serious consequences. You apparently have no clue how diplomatic relations work. A country warning another country to step the fuck back IS damage in diplomatic relations.

[JimC]

The quotes explain how it is a serious issue. The Chinese are warning trump that if he goes through with it there will be serious consequences. You apparently have no clue how diplomatic relations work. A country warning another country to step the fuck back IS damage in diplomatic relations.

True, but many yanks (perhaps including 42) will not give a shit whether the Chinese are pissed off; they probably will applaud Trump for doing so...

[pErvinalia]

Yeah. To be honest, I think China needs to pull its fucking head in. They are always bleating demands and whinging about other countries domestic policies.

[JimC]

Particularly in the south China sea; they think they own the fucking lot...

[pErvinalia]

Well through inaction by the west, they pretty much do now.

[Forty Two]

The quotes explain how it is a serious issue. The Chinese are warning trump that if he goes through with it there will be serious consequences. You apparently have no clue how diplomatic relations work. A country warning another country to step the fuck back IS damage in diplomatic relations.

LOL, we'll agree to disagree on that point, that an adversary nation "warning" another country's soon to be President about vague serious consequences is "damage" to that adversarial relationship....

Best thing to do, I guess, is make sure we don't in any way suggest that things that are "serious issues" to adversary countries are on the negotiating table. That's "damaging" to the relationship. We should make sure people we're negotiating with are clear that the issues they take most seriously are not subject to change and are not otherwise on the negotiating table...

See that's what people who know how to negotiate do. They make the other side of the table feel secure in their position, ensure that whatever they take most seriously is unquestioned and not at issue, and then we focus all discussion what they feel most comfortable with and on issues which they don't take all that seriously.

[Forty Two]

The quotes explain how it is a serious issue. The Chinese are warning trump that if he goes through with it there will be serious consequences. You apparently have no clue how diplomatic relations work. A country warning another country to step the fuck back IS damage in diplomatic relations.

True, but many yanks (perhaps including 42) will not give a shit whether the Chinese are pissed off; they probably will applaud Trump for doing so...

I think that depends on what "pissed off" means. They're not our girlfriend, so, whether their feelings are hurt doesn't really factor much into geopolitics and global strategy.

[Forty Two]

Particularly in the south China sea; they think they own the fucking lot...

Well, they don't own the South China Sea, they have maritime limits like every other country, and many countries have maritime claims to parts of the South China sea along their borders, like Malaysia, Vietnam, Brunei, Indonesia, The Phillipines and Taiwan, etc.

It's a rather important part of international waters, since 1/3 of all world shipping goes through there. So, it's not surprising that China's interest is to extend its control over as much of it as possible. It's also not surprising that other countries don't just cave in to what China wants. But, since China deems the South China Sea to be among its most serious foreign policy issues, we need to just acquiesce in their position. Otherwise, we'll damage our relations with them.