Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

[klr]

The sraight dope:

http://www.islamicbulletin.org/newslett ... ylaws.aspx

...

Beware of Pork in these Popular Brands:

Ivory soap, Colgate toothpaste, Nabisco cookies, Dryers ice cream, Lucky Charms Cereal, Jergens Lotion, Carnation Coffee Mate & Jello Pudding.

Does that mean those employees refusing to handle the overt products like ham or bacon will also refuse to touch toothpaste and the like? If not, their devotion might be in question.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Or maybe they're going to carefully read the ingredient list of every item to see if it's haram or not. Leaving all other considerations aside, how would they avoid the catch-22 of handling something to find out if they're not supposed to touch it or not?

[charlou]

Who cares? Most are nice enough people.

[JimC]

Who cares? Most are nice enough people.

Sure, but the real issue is how much bending western societies should do to cater for their particular delusions...

[klr]

Who cares? Most are nice enough people.

It's not all those nice people* who are the problem. A small number of people are a problem - or are potentially a problem. The M&S decision means that they may now actually become a problem.

But there are much wider issues here than just potential customer inconvenience. For me, this is an issue of principle, for the sorts of reasons that I have been giving. Why should some people get blatantly preferential treatment because of their professed beliefs, and to the detriment of others on a number of levels?

*All foreign staff who serve me in any shop, deli, restaurant or whatever are unfailingly polite, regardless of where in the world they might have come from. But then, I make a point of being polite to all staff who serve me.

[charlou]

Politeness isn't the issue, we're agreed .. even among those who wish to abstain from particular tasks for religious reasons, their personal preference isn't impolite or offensive or an affront, it's just ... religious. And that aside, an economic consideration for the business owner. Retailers who include diversity tend to include religious diversity. They're most likely going to balance the most pragmatic approach to the diversity of their employees, the community demographic to which they cater, and their profit margin

[klr]

Politeness isn't the issue, we're agreed .. even among those who wish to abstain from particular tasks for religious reasons, their personal preference isn't impolite or offensive or an affront, it's just ... religious. And that aside, an economic consideration for the business owner. Retailers who include diversity tend to include religious diversity. They're most likely going to balance the most pragmatic approach to the diversity of their employees, the community demographic to which they cater, and their profit margin

They just don't appear to have thought this through, not on so many levels. That does not surprise me either. A few people throwing this issue about on a forum as we are will come up with a whole range of reasons why this will not work "as is". Is M&S management actually unaware of the sorts of points that we - and doubtless many others - have raised in the course of a short discussion?

[HomerJay]

The Muslim cashier can ring a bell for the manager to come over and perform that particular transaction. That's the way it's done here if, for instance, a cashier is underage and cannot legally handle alcohol. In the case of Muslim cashiers, if the manager is bothered enough then perhaps he might eventually question the wisdom of putting such a person on a till in the first place.

But you rarely have long to sort the situation out, I was in a queue once when the guy in front had wine and the cashier wasn't old enough to sell it. After less than a minute everyone was pretty pissed off about it and then a woman jumped out of the queue, she worked in the shop but it was her day off and she processed the wine so we could carry on. She was one of the most pissed off about the wait as she seemed in a big hurry.

At the moment the tills are crammed with xmas shoppers and tempers are already frayed, it would be supremely annoying to queue for a few minutes only to get to the front and find you couldn't be served.

I must admit if I'm at the till and something doesn't scan or they need to do a price check I frequently say forget it and just leave the item.

Likewise if you get to the eventually get to the front and they say the card machine is broken so it's cash only can you go an queue again, it's so annoying people often just say fuck it and walk off.

[mistermack]

A natural progression is for muslims to be excused serving unbelievers.
After all, what is more against islam, touching the outside of a bottle that contains alcohol, or serving someone who believes that your prophet was a liar and a cheat?

And catholics could refuse to serve muslims for the same reason. Why should you have to handle money that a muslim has just touched.

And nobody should have to serve the jews. That goes without saying. They killed baby jesus.

I think if I had queued up and then been told to wait, I would make damn sure that nobody else got served before me. Just refuse to stand aside, and just stand there blocking the queue till you get served.
Hit them in the pocket, I would.

[HomerJay]

Apology now issued, although the customer was unnamed.

Marks & Spencer has apologised after a Muslim member of staff refused to serve a customer trying to buy alcohol.

The retailer said it usually tried to assign "suitable roles" to staff who could not handle certain items because of their religious beliefs.

It said this policy had not been followed in a case highlighted by the Telegraph over the weekend.

Consuming alcohol is forbidden in Islam, and some Muslims refuse to handle it at all.

An unnamed customer told the newspaper they had tried to buy a bottle of champagne in an M&S store, but the member of staff "was very apologetic but said she could not serve me" and asked the customer to use another till.

More sense from the John Lewis Partnership:

But speaking to Radio 5 live's On The Money programme on Sunday, Andy Street, managing director of John Lewis, said the company did not have a similar policy, and questioned whether members of staff should have the right to refuse to serve customers.

"This is taking it one stage beyond common sense," he told the programme.

"We certainly have never had any issue with our teams... we've not even had to have a policy on this. I would hope [members of staff] would understand that in their job this was probably going to be required."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25488259

I think this bit from M&S is problematic though:

A spokesperson for M&S said: "Where we have an employee whose religious beliefs restrict food or drink they can handle, we work closely with our member of staff to place them in suitable role, such as in our clothing department or bakery in foods.

Because they have only offered the get out to religious twats, which is not democratic but privileged and also it means that the high pressure cashier role can be ducked for a cushy number in women's lingerie. I would certainly prefer to advise women on thongs than face the wrath of the xmas rush.

[JimC]

HomerJay wrote:

...I would certainly prefer to advise women on thongs...

Would the advice consist of urging them to try on a large variety, and that you, as an excellent judge, would give a detailed critique of how good each one looks?

[laklak]

Shame they just can't fire the intolerant cunt.

[Trinity]

Okay, what I'm not getting is that if a religious employee refuses to sell something that they deem immoral/forbidden, aren't they being hypocritical working for an employer who sells such items regardless? Seems like double standards to me.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Okay, what I'm not getting is that if a religious employee refuses to sell something that they deem immoral/forbidden, aren't they being hypocritical working for an employer who sells such items regardless? Seems like double standards to me.

Yes.
They work there for money. And money has a remarkable...plasticising effect on people's moral standards, doesn't it?

[pErvinalia]

The UK panders to silly religious tolerance too much.

[pErvinalia]

Okay, what I'm not getting is that if a religious employee refuses to sell something that they deem immoral/forbidden, aren't they being hypocritical working for an employer who sells such items regardless? Seems like double standards to me.

"Double standard"... that pretty much sums up religion.