US police kill 107-year-old suspect in home shootout

[Warren Dew]

More scumbag, soldier cops who should have never been allowed to be cops in the first place.

I hope everyone is happy. This is what you have to look forward to regularly in your wonderful, authoritarian, "civilized" society.

At least in this case, the police did not shoot first.

Now if the hostages had guns all this could have been avoided

True, true.

[piscator]

http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop- ... 1610392116

Yep. Radley Balko has been all over this issue for a long time. I thank George H.W. Bush for starting it.

You have the Military-Industrial Complex to thank for it.

Way before Bush.

It's best to not misattribute things.

Is that who I have to blame for the large numbers of militarized weapons in American homes? Because if you read Radley Balko, that's a big part of the reason the cops feel they have to dress in body armor and throw flashbangs to serve a warrant for an expired car tag ticket.

[Collector1337]

Is that who I have to blame for the large numbers of militarized weapons in American homes?

Nope. What military weapons? It's pretty hard to legally get military grade weapons with the NFA and all.

So, saying "militarized weapons" is a mischaracterization. They are "civilian grade" as it were. Not military grade.

Because if you read Radley Balko, that's a big part of the reason the cops feel they have to dress in body armor and throw flashbangs to serve a warrant for an expired car tag ticket.

Yeah, some say that and they are fucking pussies who should not be police in the first place. If you don't like America, then get the fuck out, or at least be smart enough to not become a cop and then complain about it. They know what they are signing up for. If they are so scared, then they should not be signing up.

[JimC]

Is that who I have to blame for the large numbers of militarized weapons in American homes?

Nope. What military weapons? It's pretty hard to legally get military grade weapons with the NFA and all.

So, saying "militarized weapons" is a mischaracterization. They are "civilian grade" as it were. Not military grade.

Because if you read Radley Balko, that's a big part of the reason the cops feel they have to dress in body armor and throw flashbangs to serve a warrant for an expired car tag ticket.

Yeah, some say that and they are fucking pussies who should not be police in the first place. If you don't like America, then get the fuck out, or at least be smart enough to not become a cop and then complain about it. They know what they are signing up for. If they are so scared, then they should not be signing up.

A response which evades the key point. When police in the US stop a car, or enter premises, they are much more likely to encounter armed individuals than police in most other countries, other than those currently at war, such as Syria. Moreover, those arms are much more likely to be hand-guns, or semi-automatic weapons with large magazines than in other countries. Hence, it is quite understandable that US police would develop a certain paranoia, and/or itchy trigger fingers, than police in less gun-saturated areas...

[Collector1337]

I like the way it was articulated here from another forum:

I want to discuss the situation of SWAT teams and this paramilitary type action we're seeing more and more of over the last couple decades, and not get further involved in the discussion surrounding this 107 year old man who was killed by the SWAT team.

I have a shooting buddy at the range where I am a member. He is a retired DC cop and a truly good guy. When I'd see other shooting buddies I would introduce my friend, mentioning that he was a retired DC cop. Finally, after we'd known each other for a few months, he asked me very nicely if I would stop doing that. I asked him why. He told me "I worked with some of most corrupt and rotten SOBs you ever saw. I'd just as soon people not know that I worked with those people." His words.

I freely state that I might just be one of most anti-cop people here. I think that police forces, by their nature, attract the very people who have no business being cops, and this has only gotten worse since the advent of SWAT teams in the 1970's. This dovetails with our society's "War on Drugs."

Police forces attract many of the wrong type of individuals in the exact same way that politics attracts people for the wrong reasons. People with tendencies toward corruption are drawn like moths to a light, to become politicians, as we see on a regular basis (Illinois recently had at least two of its governors in jail one right after the other!).

People with psychological problems/attitude problems, bullies, and a host of other personality problems often gravitate towards police work. NO, not all cops are bad. But, compared to ANY OTHER vocation, cops have a higher rate of criminal behavior THEMSELVES than any other line of employment. Research this yourselves, you'll find it's true.

Now, add in the adrenaline junkies and outright sociopaths who are extremely attracted to the kicking in the door type stuff that SWAT is (in)famous for, to all of the other personality disorders attracted to police work, and you have a line of work extremely likely to have way more than its fair share of rotten apples, and guys who'll sleep way too easy at night after pulling the trigger on an innocent.

So, is there a place or a need for SWAT teams ? Sure. Bank robbers who are fleeing a robbery, who've already shown themselves to be violent criminals. Kidnappers, who have a victim inside their dwelling. There might be a few other categories, but those two crimes are the ones which come immediately to mind when discussing the need for a break-down-the-door capability.

Stupid "No-Knock" drug raids almost never demand a SWAT team shooting the place up. With the number of people that cops and SWAT teams have killed BY MISTAKE, when they've raided the wrong address ... you'd think that we'd have had a national reassessing of this whole SWAT nonsense a long time ago. After all, isn't the rationale for so many of our laws "If it only saves ONE life ..." ? Well, there are HUNDREDS of people who have been wrongly KILLED by cops who were simply at the wrong address!! If these cops had not been authorized in the first place, to go in with guns blazing then a whole lot of people would be alive today - people who shouldn't have had to die because of some idiotic SWAT team raid.

What I see way too much of today in the cop community is their tendency to huddle up, and instantly come to the defense of even rotten cops and out-of-control cops.

What I've described above, and a whole lot more, is why I do not consider cops to be "the good guys" anymore. Not since I was a little kid have I believed that. Have fun flaming away, cops, and you wanna-be cops. I really don't care. Along with a great many Americans, I view most cops as potential criminals, and people to be avoided.

[JimC]

If the above is a true reflection of police in the modern US, then you folk need to take a serious look at recruitment procedures, training and internal discipline...

There certainly have been similar instances in Oz, but not, I think, to the same extent...

[Collector1337]

If the above is a true reflection of police in the modern US, then you folk need to take a serious look at recruitment procedures, training and internal discipline...

There certainly have been similar instances in Oz, but not, I think, to the same extent...

I completely agree.

Twice in one day!

[JimC]

If the above is a true reflection of police in the modern US, then you folk need to take a serious look at recruitment procedures, training and internal discipline...

There certainly have been similar instances in Oz, but not, I think, to the same extent...

I completely agree.

Twice in one day!

[pErvinalia]

I like the way it was articulated here from another forum:

I want to discuss the situation of SWAT teams and this paramilitary type action we're seeing more and more of over the last couple decades, and not get further involved in the discussion surrounding this 107 year old man who was killed by the SWAT team.

I have a shooting buddy at the range where I am a member. He is a retired DC cop and a truly good guy. When I'd see other shooting buddies I would introduce my friend, mentioning that he was a retired DC cop. Finally, after we'd known each other for a few months, he asked me very nicely if I would stop doing that. I asked him why. He told me "I worked with some of most corrupt and rotten SOBs you ever saw. I'd just as soon people not know that I worked with those people." His words.

I freely state that I might just be one of most anti-cop people here. I think that police forces, by their nature, attract the very people who have no business being cops, and this has only gotten worse since the advent of SWAT teams in the 1970's. This dovetails with our society's "War on Drugs."

Police forces attract many of the wrong type of individuals in the exact same way that politics attracts people for the wrong reasons. People with tendencies toward corruption are drawn like moths to a light, to become politicians, as we see on a regular basis (Illinois recently had at least two of its governors in jail one right after the other!).

People with psychological problems/attitude problems, bullies, and a host of other personality problems often gravitate towards police work. NO, not all cops are bad. But, compared to ANY OTHER vocation, cops have a higher rate of criminal behavior THEMSELVES than any other line of employment. Research this yourselves, you'll find it's true.

Now, add in the adrenaline junkies and outright sociopaths who are extremely attracted to the kicking in the door type stuff that SWAT is (in)famous for, to all of the other personality disorders attracted to police work, and you have a line of work extremely likely to have way more than its fair share of rotten apples, and guys who'll sleep way too easy at night after pulling the trigger on an innocent.

So, is there a place or a need for SWAT teams ? Sure. Bank robbers who are fleeing a robbery, who've already shown themselves to be violent criminals. Kidnappers, who have a victim inside their dwelling. There might be a few other categories, but those two crimes are the ones which come immediately to mind when discussing the need for a break-down-the-door capability.

Stupid "No-Knock" drug raids almost never demand a SWAT team shooting the place up. With the number of people that cops and SWAT teams have killed BY MISTAKE, when they've raided the wrong address ... you'd think that we'd have had a national reassessing of this whole SWAT nonsense a long time ago. After all, isn't the rationale for so many of our laws "If it only saves ONE life ..." ? Well, there are HUNDREDS of people who have been wrongly KILLED by cops who were simply at the wrong address!! If these cops had not been authorized in the first place, to go in with guns blazing then a whole lot of people would be alive today - people who shouldn't have had to die because of some idiotic SWAT team raid.

What I see way too much of today in the cop community is their tendency to huddle up, and instantly come to the defense of even rotten cops and out-of-control cops.

What I've described above, and a whole lot more, is why I do not consider cops to be "the good guys" anymore. Not since I was a little kid have I believed that. Have fun flaming away, cops, and you wanna-be cops. I really don't care. Along with a great many Americans, I view most cops as potential criminals, and people to be avoided.

This might all be true, but it doesn't really relate to the OP. The old coot shot at the cops. You shoot at cops and you are likely to wind up dead. SWAT or no SWAT.

[Cormac]

If the above is a true reflection of police in the modern US, then you folk need to take a serious look at recruitment procedures, training and internal discipline...

There certainly have been similar instances in Oz, but not, I think, to the same extent...

Not just the USA. I know a cop in London, a member of an anti-terrorist unit. Salman Rushdie said that in all the years in hiding, he never felt as much at risk as when he was being guarded by this guy. When my pal broke up with him, he harrassed and threatened her despite court orders and so on. He is an overt racist, and has a simmering rage just below the surface at all times. Very scary, when he carries a pistol, and has a sub-machine gun in the boot of his car.

From pals in the Met, I've heard story after story of police corruption and indeed violence.

There is a cultural problem.

[Tyrannical]

Rise of the warrior cop started forever ago in the US. From the Texas Rangers in the old west to the G-Men during prohibition. Now police are back to looking like town guards just like in Skyrim.
[/quote]