Convincing People that Guns Are Bad, M'Kay.

[Coito ergo sum]

People are not prepared in the urban and suburban neighborhoods. And, when that toddler starts crying because he's hungry, and you've been boiling dirty water on a fire for 15 straight days (and now the fences in the neighborhood are all gone, having been used as fuel), dad is going to go out in search of food, water and fuel, and when it is his wife and children in need, he'll do whatever it takes.

So don't you think it might well be worth ensuring that adequate taxes are collected to fund goverment to ensure this never happens.

Sure. Which government should we model after? The British government?

IMO - The government doesn't know how to "ensure this never happens."

If government falls I die I know I can't survive merely relying on my own skills and lets be realistic neither can most people in any high density industralised nation. I know some people look forward to the zombie apocalyse where 99% of the population die on the basis they think they will be in the 1% but thats sociopaths for you

I don't know what you're arguing about.

I merely stated what I believe to be the fact - the reality. People are not prepared. I saw that very clearly in 2003, when all the power was out in my State. People were helpless pretty quickly. At most, people would have one full take of gas to get anywhere, and then they'd have to steal from another vehicle or from a filling station's ground tank.

The supermarkets were empty in two days. The water had to be boiled, so folks without gas cookers were fucked because they could not purify the water.

It won't take too long without power for the city sewer systems to stop functioning properly. Inside toilets will go away within weeks, and running water in the house will be filthy within weeks. Most people's foodstuffs will be gone in weeks. Water in days or weeks at the most. The children start to go hungry. The mothers start to weep. Locals band together, and they learn of different people or areas that have different resources. They will go get it.

I don't know what sort of "adequate funding" you think is available to make sure this "never happens," but frankly I feel the mere fact that you're even suggesting it reveals a severe naivete about the knife-edge on which our culture and our society reside.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's odd to think that if it ever really happens, which I doubt, Ayaan and I have space in a bunker. I guess having crazy friends is handy at times like that.

I thought it over and figured that I wouldn't want to be in the bunker.

I will NEVER give up.

Me neither. My first choice will be to not be in a bunker, though.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It's odd to think that if it ever really happens, which I doubt, Ayaan and I have space in a bunker. I guess having crazy friends is handy at times like that.

I thought it over and figured that I wouldn't want to be in the bunker.

I will NEVER give up.

Me neither. My first choice will be to not be in a bunker, though.

I'd see how things pan out, who was on top, before I came out of this one. If it's the best place to be, fine. If not, then Ayaan and I will talk.

[Coito ergo sum]

I am by no means a survivalist. I'm more of a denialist, since I haven't the least bit of preparation to survive some sort of major disaster. But, I know it's possible. The idea that some folks have that it isn't possible to have something happen that would topple the US and Europe and change everything forever is, well, counter-historical. People felt the same thing about Rome, and it fell. The Eternal City was sacked by the barbarians. The British Empire was the largest in the world -- it's gone, pretty much. The one consistent thing about cultures, economies, governments, politics and societies is that they are temporary.

[Audley Strange]

Excerpt from Guns, Germs and Steele by Jared Diamond.
Copyright 1997
Chapter 2 A Natural Experiment of History
Pages 53-54

On the Chatham Islands, 500 miles east of New Zealand, centuries of independence came to a brutal end for the Moriori people in December 1835. On November 19 of that year, a ship carrying 500 Maori armed with guns, clubs, and axes arrived, followed on December 5 by a shipload of 400 more Maori. Groups of Maori began to walk through Moriori settlements, announcing that the Moriori were now their slaves, and killing those who objected. An organized resistance by the Moriori could still then have defeated the Maori, who were outnumbered two to one. However, the Moriori had a tradition of resolving disputes peacefully. They decided in a council meeting not to fight back, but to offer peace, friendship, and a division of resources.

Before the Moriori could deliver that offer, the Maori attacked en masse. Over the course of the next few days, they killed hundreds of Moriori, cooked and ate many of the bodies, and enslaved all the others, killing most of them too over the next few years as it suited their whim.

A Maori conqueror explained, "We took possession...in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped. Some ran away from us, these we killed, and others we killed--but what of that? It was in accordance with our custom."

IMO, anyone who believes that they can be safe because they presume to have the moral high ground, is laughably--maybe even tragically--naive.

Humans are still violent primates.

Oh don't you love indigenous tribes? There so wise and ethnic and spiritual.

What do you mean still?

[MrJonno]

I don't know what you're arguing about.

I merely stated what I believe to be the fact - the reality. People are not prepared. I saw that very clearly in 2003, when all the power was out in my State. People were helpless pretty quickly. At most, people would have one full take of gas to get anywhere, and then they'd have to steal from another vehicle or from a filling station's ground tank.

The point is you can't be prepared and if you pretend you can prepare for the apocalyse of the end of civilization instead of ensuring government and society doesnt fail you are actually increasing the chances of it happening

[Audley Strange]

People are not prepared in the urban and suburban neighborhoods. And, when that toddler starts crying because he's hungry, and you've been boiling dirty water on a fire for 15 straight days (and now the fences in the neighborhood are all gone, having been used as fuel), dad is going to go out in search of food, water and fuel, and when it is his wife and children in need, he'll do whatever it takes.

So don't you think it might well be worth ensuring that adequate taxes are collected to fund goverment to ensure this never happens.
If government falls I die I know I can't survive merely relying on my own skills and lets be realistic neither can most people in any high density industralised nation. I know some people look forward to the zombie apocalyse where 99% of the population die on the basis they think they will be in the 1% but thats sociopaths for you

Grow some fucking stones. You're so easily frightened by weaponry and barbarity that you'd sell your arse to the first Mummy and Daddy tyrants that comes along with a slice of cake?
That's the type of guy that ends up shot by resistance troops. If you think that the Government is there to protect the citizenry of a state. You're certainly one of the 99%.

[MrJonno]

Grow some fucking stones. You're so easily frightened by weaponry and barbarity that you'd sell your arse to the first Mummy and Daddy tyrants that comes along with a slice of cake?
That's the type of guy that ends up shot by resistance troops. If you think that the Government is there to protect the citizenry of a state. You're certainly one of the 99%.

Pretty much any government no matter how vile is better than no goverment at all

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Grow some fucking stones. You're so easily frightened by weaponry and barbarity that you'd sell your arse to the first Mummy and Daddy tyrants that comes along with a slice of cake?
That's the type of guy that ends up shot by resistance troops. If you think that the Government is there to protect the citizenry of a state. You're certainly one of the 99%.

Pretty much any government no matter how vile is better than no goverment at all

I'd wait to see it first. Ever read Lucifer's Hammer?

[Audley Strange]

Tell that to the victims of those Governments.

[MrJonno]

A tyrannical goverment may kill me, no goverment will definitely kill me. Logically its a no brainer

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A tyrannical goverment may kill me, no goverment will definitely kill me. Logically its a no brainer

B doesn't follow from A. Zplain, please.

[MrJonno]

A tyrannical goverment may kill me, no goverment will definitely kill me. Logically its a no brainer

B doesn't follow from A. Zplain, please.

Follows pretty well to me

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A tyrannical goverment may kill me, no goverment will definitely kill me. Logically its a no brainer

B doesn't follow from A. Zplain, please.

Follows pretty well to me

A = A tyrannical goverment may kill me,

B = no goverment will definitely kill me.

Your B is unsupported. Especially the "definitely" part.

[MrJonno]

Yes the buses will automatically run without government, food and water will be delivered and everyone will just behave without the police