People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:29 am

andrewclunn wrote:Okay... crazy, but I'm okay with people on welfare having pets. Only because I don't see a "no pets" rule as enforceable, and think the cost of attempting to enforce it would be greater than the savings. So long as they're not getting more money for having pets.
:this:

If they're not getting 'pet welfare', then what does it matter what they do with their money? If they get the same as someone else it just means they have less to spend on movies/video games/food/booze. If you're going to be upset over them having a pet on these premises, then you might as well get upset over anything over and above the cost of barely keeping themselves alive.

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Re: People on Benefits - with pets

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:36 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
Santa_Claus wrote:...If you are spending money on a pet, then clearly you have more money (from the State) than you actually need...
Keeping people on basic survival rations is not a great help to their employability.
Right. There are also a bevy of studies available for anyone interested on the therapeutic effect pets have on what I'll call 'pet people' which increases their employability.

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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Kristie » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:43 am

I'm not a pet person, so I have to agree more with SC on this subject. People are more important than animals. And if you can't feed yourself, you certainly shouldn't be feeding an animal. I feel the same way about people that can't afford to eat but they can afford to drink and smoke though. Obviously not the popular opinion around here!

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Re: People on Benefits - with pets

Post by Drewish » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:21 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
andrewclunn wrote:
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
Santa_Claus wrote:...If you are spending money on a pet, then clearly you have more money (from the State) than you actually need...
Keeping people on basic survival rations is not a great help to their employability.
Even less so for animal.
Could you re-phrase that so it makes sense?..
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Re: People on Benefits - with pets

Post by Santa_Claus » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:42 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
Santa_Claus wrote:...If you are spending money on a pet, then clearly you have more money (from the State) than you actually need...
Keeping people on basic survival rations is not a great help to their employability.
Maybe not a great help. But a great motivator :smoke:

Actually I am not a bread & water advocate for the unemployed (apart from the foreign ones - obviously :hehe: ).....life without a few luxuries is better. But the State (you and me) providing for animals is just taking the p#ss.

And don't get me on the "Human Right" of having Sattelite (Cable) TV :irate:
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:46 am

I keep reading this as "Pets with benefits". :fp:
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by JimC » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:16 am

PordFrefect wrote:
andrewclunn wrote:Okay... crazy, but I'm okay with people on welfare having pets. Only because I don't see a "no pets" rule as enforceable, and think the cost of attempting to enforce it would be greater than the savings. So long as they're not getting more money for having pets.
:this:

If they're not getting 'pet welfare', then what does it matter what they do with their money? If they get the same as someone else it just means they have less to spend on movies/video games/food/booze. If you're going to be upset over them having a pet on these premises, then you might as well get upset over anything over and above the cost of barely keeping themselves alive.
Seems sensible to me...

In addition, looking after pets is good for people; better than pissing it away on the pokes, for example...

A cat from a shelter is the way to go; that's where we got our two...
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by floppit » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:48 am

I suppose it depends on what people believe help, something given, should cover and that in turns depends on what society an individual wishes to live in.

For me, I want to live in a society where those helped are done so in a way that maintains their self respect and encourages their desire/self belief to use the help in ways that improve their long term chances of regaining better independence. I don't want to live in a society where help is so meagre as to degrade an individual, lessen them and result in a more permanent dependency, I wouldn't vote for that, I would articulate my objection to it and argue it to be short sighted, foolish.

I accept that in every system there will, as a certainty, exist people that abuse that system but in designing any system a balance needs to be struck between preventing abuse and still having a functional system. If ALL the attention goes on preventing the abuses then the likelihood is arriving at a system, which while more robust in terms of defensiveness, has forgone it's ability to support any individual out of dependency towards increasing their own means to improve their own situation.

How I view pets owned by those receiving financial assistance is governed by the above. Pets are not a 'dead loss', there's plentiful research in regard to the role they can play in promoting responsibility, improving interpersonal relationships between people, improving mental and physical health and increasing quality of life. Equally there's a section of pet owners who seem to manage to fail impressively at gaining any of the above, abuse the pets, the state and often the people around them - I would argue this group would be no less of a pain in the ass petless! But for those that DO manage to gain from the benefits of pet ownership it's actually very cost effective. A hardy cross breed costs little in vet bills/is cheap to insure and frankly there's plenty of non branded, nutritional cheap pet food out there (working dog feed by the sack in the uk isn't even charged VAT!). In return the dog (yeah - I know there's other pets out there but I haven't a fecking clue re half of them!) can actively provide daily focus for someone struggling with mental health issues, constant companionship way beyond what the state could afford to provide, teach children in families about caring, provide a light but constant fitness regime at no cost to the state (in the uk savings through NHS should be considered in regard to health) and offer a focus/daily routine, a core need in regard to returning to work.

In shorts the mugheads that manage to reap none of the above will be no less mugheads without a pet and yeah, it'd be better for the pet if they didn't have one! No system will eradicate their existence or their abuse of help without creating a non functioning system for those who are able and willing to improve their own lot. I would argue it is more pragmatic and sensible to create systems that encourage those who will step up to the plate, and for them pet ownership can work, be cost effective and beneficial to the individual/society.

I have no idea exactly how much my dog costs because it's so damn little! I buy a sack of good dry feed, I give him the healthy household scraps as a top up, he's 14 a fantastic shape and while vet costs have increased with age, I have no intention of dragging him through the 'zombie on a string' old age so they will be capped. He costs £11 per 60 days + (only since old age hit) £100 - £200 per year vets fees. For the first 13 years of life, only the feed costs and 1 vet visit per year max; about 20p per day. How's that for cost effective gains?
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Schneibster » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:57 am

floppit wrote:I accept that in every system there will, as a certainty, exist people that abuse that system but in designing any system a balance needs to be struck between preventing abuse and still having a functional system. If ALL the attention goes on preventing the abuses then the likelihood is arriving at a system, which while more robust in terms of defensiveness, has forgone it's ability to support any individual out of dependency towards increasing their own means to improve their own situation.
This is what has happened over here. The system is so draconian in preventing the least fraud that it's of no help to people who actually need it and keeps down those who would otherwise become productive members of society after they'd gotten over whatever their temporary problem was.

I guarantee that if any congresscritter introduced legislation to do something about this and see to it that people with pets didn't lose them if they lost their home, you'd be able to hear the whining from the right wingnuts on the fucking Moon.
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Svartalf » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:37 am

Gawdzilla wrote:I keep reading this as "Pets with benefits". :fp:
Your mind is dirty, but think of this next time you wake up in bed and have to be careful not to bother the cats snuggled on and around you.
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Lozzer » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:11 pm

In most situations these people had their pet before their redundancies, or whatever. They made a commitment that animal once they had purchased it, and that means spending money and taking care of it regardless of personal circumstances.
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:49 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:I keep reading this as "Pets with benefits". :fp:
Your mind is dirty, but think of this next time you wake up in bed and have to be careful not to bother the cats snuggled on and around you.
You mean like fifteen minutes ago? :coffee:
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by amused » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:56 pm

There's a comic panel of a man unpacking groceries as his pets look on, waiting to be fed. The punchline is - 'Our pets must think we are awesome hunters.' I think that if you are on assistance then you're obligated to explain to the pets that you're only a semi-awesome hunter.

It does annoy me to see homeless people with 'pets' but I know there's usually some mental issues there to begin with, so, slack.

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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Azathoth » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:12 pm

amused wrote:There's a comic panel of a man unpacking groceries as his pets look on, waiting to be fed. The punchline is - 'Our pets must think we are awesome hunters.' I think that if you are on assistance then you're obligated to explain to the pets that you're only a semi-awesome hunter.

It does annoy me to see homeless people with 'pets' but I know there's usually some mental issues there to begin with, so, slack.
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Re: People on Benefits / Welfare - with pets

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:17 pm

amused wrote:There's a comic panel of a man unpacking groceries as his pets look on, waiting to be fed. The punchline is - 'Our pets must think we are awesome hunters.' I think that if you are on assistance then you're obligated to explain to the pets that you're only a semi-awesome hunter.

It does annoy me to see homeless people with 'pets' but I know there's usually some mental issues there to begin with, so, slack.
I used to help round up homeless vets and families around the docks of Los Angeles. Sometimes they'd have pets and if they were well behaved we'd always let them come along. The dog or cat got a meal along with everyone else. Seeing a five year old boy who may never get to go to school hugging a puppy who can't stop licking his face after they've both got their first decent meal in a week is something you have to experience.
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