Is the USA uncivilised?

[Seabass]

The embargo on Cuba has achieved exactly zero in terms of causing desirable change, and has caused immense harm to the poor people of Cuba, in the form of exacerbating poverty.

You could say the same about any embargo. Yet you only seem to be concerned with one in particular.

[Warren Dew]

I'd also love to know why they keep saying no. I can't see what purpose the embargo serves.

The U.S. has a substantial population of Cuba expatriates whose property the Castro regime expropriated or nationalized. These expatriates exert strong political pressure to keep the embargo in force until the Castro regime ends or liberalizes.

Many of the expatriates are the descendants of corrupt robber baron capitalists and Batista era oligarchs who would have kept Cuban working people in utter poverty unless a revolution happened. Whatever the excesses of the revolution (and there were many, no doubt), I won't shed a tear for the descendants of a wealthy clique of exploitative land owners.

Then why shed a tear for sanctions on a government at least equally exploitative?

Not shedding a tear, just wondering why the US can't let go of vindictive emotions, and move on...

Good question. Ask yourself why you still worry about whether people were "corrupt robber baron capitalists", and maybe you'll have the answer.

[Warren Dew]

As Jim said, predictable response from Seth.

My complements to Seabass, though, who posted some sound common sense.

To Seth
As is seen in Syria, overturning a government is not as easy as you make it out to be. Civilian deaths in Syria now exceed 120,000. A very heavy price to pay. Overcoming Castro in Cuba would cost at least that much, or more.

Not only that, but I suspect that the average Cuban does not see Castro as the enemy. The USA fills that role.

A very black and white (and therefore unrealistic) appraisal. While Cuba is not North Korea (not by a country mile), free expression - especially in political matters - is still a very long way short of say, oh, the USA.

The USA fills the role of Public Enemy #1 for Cuban state propaganda. What the "average" Cuban thinks is much harder to discern. Doubtless the real situation is very complex, and that would include many Cubans both admiring and disliking the USA to varying degrees. As for Castro ... who knows.

Not to mention that most North Koreans seem to believe their government propaganda and to believe that the west is evil and that they live in a comparative utopia. Many Cubans may be similarly deluded.

[Warren Dew]

The embargo on Cuba has achieved exactly zero in terms of causing desirable change, and has caused immense harm to the poor people of Cuba, in the form of exacerbating poverty.

You could say the same about any embargo. Yet you only seem to be concerned with one in particular.

It's not really clear what would have happened without the embargo. Even with the Embargo, the Castro regime damages the U.S. politically every chance it gets. Without the embargo, the would have a bit more military and economic power that might make them more successful at this.

[laklak]

The best thing that could happen to Cuba would be an immediate suspension of the embargo. Open it up, all the way. I guarantee you within a couple of years the Cubans will be queuing for Micky D's. WTF are we scared of? That Cuban style Stalinism will take root in Miami? Nonsense. In every single instance, when there's even a hint of a level playing field, Communism loses and capitalism wins. Happens every single time, and why the fuck not? Who wants to live in a crumbling gray apartment block and drive a cardboard car? Just look at Cuban culture in South Florida, it's vibrant, successful, capitalist and lots of fun.

[Blind groper]

Well said, laklak

[Ian]

I think that'll be just what happens once the Castros are gone. But not likely before then.

Worth noting: that Cuban-American community in Florida has historically been VERY anti-Castro. Lots of boat people and other refugees and their offspring. In a major battleground state for US Presidential politics. A complete 180-degree reversal of policy on Cuba is easier said than done so long as there is breath in the lungs of the Castros.

But don't think that it's just the US keeping the status quo. Fidel and Raul know how unstabilizing the normalization of ties with the US would be for their government. They certainly haven't been begging for the embargo to end.

[laklak]

Well said, laklak

It seems a no brainer to me. I understand the original ideas behind the embargo, it was the height of the Cold War and Khrushchev was busy banging his shoes on a table and waving midrange missiles at Florida, but since the wall fell there's been no rational reason to keep it in place. Most of the opposition to ending it is just sour grapes from the Cuban American community, but they would be the ones most likely to benefit from it. Once the embargo ends they'll be flocking back, replete with fat accounts full of Yankee Dollars, opening casinos and hotels. I'd invest there in a bloody heartbeat.

[JimC]

Well said, laklak

It seems a no brainer to me. I understand the original ideas behind the embargo, it was the height of the Cold War and Khrushchev was busy banging his shoes on a table and waving midrange missiles at Florida, but since the wall fell there's been no rational reason to keep it in place. Most of the opposition to ending it is just sour grapes from the Cuban American community, but they would be the ones most likely to benefit from it. Once the embargo ends they'll be flocking back, replete with fat accounts full of Yankee Dollars, opening casinos and hotels. I'd invest there in a bloody heartbeat.

But given you said there is no recent rational reason, what is your take on why the US recently confirmed that the embargo would stay?

Is it, as Ian suggested, a consequence of latino politics in Florida?

[Warren Dew]

The best thing that could happen to Cuba would be an immediate suspension of the embargo.

Best thing for Cuba? Sure. Question is, does the Cuban government care enough about their people to pay compensation for property seized by the Castro regime? That would go a long way towards quelling support for the embargo in the U.S.

Failing that, they'll likely have to wait for the Castro brothers to die. It won't be a long wait.

[laklak]

Well said, laklak

It seems a no brainer to me. I understand the original ideas behind the embargo, it was the height of the Cold War and Khrushchev was busy banging his shoes on a table and waving midrange missiles at Florida, but since the wall fell there's been no rational reason to keep it in place. Most of the opposition to ending it is just sour grapes from the Cuban American community, but they would be the ones most likely to benefit from it. Once the embargo ends they'll be flocking back, replete with fat accounts full of Yankee Dollars, opening casinos and hotels. I'd invest there in a bloody heartbeat.

But given you said there is no recent rational reason, what is your take on why the US recently confirmed that the embargo would stay?

Is it, as Ian suggested, a consequence of latino politics in Florida?

No one ever accused anyone in the U.S. government of rationality.

[JimC]

The best thing that could happen to Cuba would be an immediate suspension of the embargo.

Best thing for Cuba? Sure. Question is, does the Cuban government care enough about their people to pay compensation for property seized by the Castro regime? That would go a long way towards quelling support for the embargo in the U.S.

Failing that, they'll likely have to wait for the Castro brothers to die. It won't be a long wait.

Perhaps the US government could do a similar exercise of compensation to the North American Indians?

(and yes, I know that could be the case anywhere in the world...)

So, it's the greed of cuban exiles that is keeping the stalemate happening...

[Warren Dew]

The best thing that could happen to Cuba would be an immediate suspension of the embargo.

Best thing for Cuba? Sure. Question is, does the Cuban government care enough about their people to pay compensation for property seized by the Castro regime? That would go a long way towards quelling support for the embargo in the U.S.

Failing that, they'll likely have to wait for the Castro brothers to die. It won't be a long wait.

Perhaps the US government could do a similar exercise of compensation to the North American Indians?

I think we'll just live with their embargo.

So, it's the greed of cuban exiles that is keeping the stalemate happening...

It's not greed to want what you worked hard to earn.

[JimC]

The best thing that could happen to Cuba would be an immediate suspension of the embargo.

Best thing for Cuba? Sure. Question is, does the Cuban government care enough about their people to pay compensation for property seized by the Castro regime? That would go a long way towards quelling support for the embargo in the U.S.

Failing that, they'll likely have to wait for the Castro brothers to die. It won't be a long wait.

Perhaps the US government could do a similar exercise of compensation to the North American Indians?

I think we'll just live with their embargo.

So, it's the greed of cuban exiles that is keeping the stalemate happening...

It's not greed to want what you worked hard to earn.

In the Batista era, I don't think we're talking about ma and pa shopkeepers...

We are talking plantation and factory owners who made the treatment of blacks in the ante-bellum South look like a picnic. The Cuban revolution wasn't an evil Marxist conspiracy, it was the overthrow of a brutal regime, whose oligarchs were right evil bastards. Their descendants can whistle for their money, as far as the Cuban people are concerned...

[Hermit]

Not shedding a tear, just wondering why the US can't let go of vindictive emotions, and move on...

Australia didn't spend five decades staring down the barrel of a nuclear arsenal. Australia didn't have to endure the terror of looking nuclear apocalypse in the face after Cuba decided to let the Rooskies situate nukes on its back doorstep.

Huh? No Russian nuclear missiles allowed in a country near the to the USA, but it's OK for the US to install them in Turkey? What's good for the goose...

We see patterns of behavior like this from countless nations throughout human history, and still some folks seem convinced that Americans are uniquely evil in ways others aren't.

Which is why the Europeans maintain the embargo against the Germans to this day, I suppose, and the French in particular. Grow up, blinkereyes.